Logic vs. Theism
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22-03-2017, 08:56 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 09:16 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 09:12 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I'm sorry; how does existence not wholly and utterly conforming to the will of man equate to there being no creative force for existence whatsoever?

And when man finds out how to mold all things to his liking or wish; what would your axiom pose then?

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

The universe doesn't conform to the will of humans, or gods, or anything else you can conceive of. The universe, reality, just is. Regardless of what we wish, or want, or think, that isn't going to change.

The only thing that's ever come close to conforming the world to our wants, is our application of science. Our intentional manipulation made possible through our understanding of how the universe works.

That's it exactly. Ayn Rand said that the best and simplest formulation was that of Francis Bacon: Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2017, 11:06 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 09:16 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 09:12 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I'm sorry; how does existence not wholly and utterly conforming to the will of man equate to there being no creative force for existence whatsoever?

And when man finds out how to mold all things to his liking or wish; what would your axiom pose then?

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

The universe doesn't conform to the will of humans, or gods, or anything else you can conceive of. The universe, reality, just is. Regardless of what we wish, or want, or think, that isn't going to change.

The only thing that's ever come close to conforming the world to our wants, is our application of science. Our intentional manipulation made possible through our understanding of how the universe works.
Why would on think the universe conforms to the wishes of man?

Can you tell me how the laws that bind the universe were formed, or what set all things into metaphorical motion?

peace

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22-03-2017, 11:19 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:06 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 09:16 PM)JesseB Wrote:  The universe doesn't conform to the will of humans, or gods, or anything else you can conceive of. The universe, reality, just is. Regardless of what we wish, or want, or think, that isn't going to change.

The only thing that's ever come close to conforming the world to our wants, is our application of science. Our intentional manipulation made possible through our understanding of how the universe works.
Why would on think the universe conforms to the wishes of man?

Can you tell me how the laws that bind the universe were formed, or what set all things into metaphorical motion?

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

You are asking what caused the laws of the universe, but causality is a law of nature itself. Asking what caused causality is another instance of the fallacy of the stolen concept. The facts that the laws of nature identify are inherent in the things which exist. So the laws of nature stem from the law of identity and the laws of logic are corollary to the law of identity.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2017, 11:23 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
At work.

Hello again Pops! Thumbsup

In regards to 'Laws'? I think you're coming at it slightly the wrong way.

There's all these things we think we know about the reality around us and, so far, they keep being testable; coming back with the same results time after time; Hence we call these ideas 'Laws'.

As for the 'Why is it so? (Watch me suck an egg into this bottle)?

Channeling my Proffesor Julius Sumnermilliner

About the very beginning, we don't know.

Hug
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22-03-2017, 11:27 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:06 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Why would on think the universe conforms to the wishes of man?

Again, who do you think claimed that?

Quote:Can you tell me how the laws that bind the universe were formed, or what set all things into metaphorical motion?

No, and neither can you. Your question presupposes a creator and that is unjustified. You may have deluded yourself into thinking that you have some answer but until you provide evidence to back up your claims it is all just bullshit.

You need help, pops. get some.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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22-03-2017, 11:32 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:27 AM)unfogged Wrote:  [quote='popsthebuilder' pid='1156739' dateline='1490202364']
Why would on think the universe conforms to the wishes of man?


Again, who do you think claimed that?


Actually the Bible claims this.

Mathew 17:20 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(21-03-2017 09:17 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 08:39 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > Cite the Bible passages which ban slavery. Consider

We keep asking this, he keeps avoiding it... pity.
Oohh oohh! Pick me, pick me...

Leviticus: 19. 18. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Matthew: 5. 43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew: 19. 19. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew: 22. 39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James: 2. 8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

peace

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22-03-2017, 11:34 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 01:13 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 04:13 PM)socialistview Wrote:  It was going to happen anyways by man's free will. Let me ask you this do you ask your self these questions before you ask me?

You claimed the NT bans slavery.

Are you going to admit you are wrong, or are you going to back this up?
I did.



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22-03-2017, 11:39 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Leviticus: 19. 18. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Matthew: 5. 43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew: 19. 19. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew: 22. 39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James: 2. 8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

None of those ban slavery; they only command Jews to love other Jews. They're still permitted to buy and sell people of other nations. Even if you extend them to encompass "love" for all others it doesn't ban slavery, you just have to love your property.

Your god is a miserably bad communicator; that's probably a result of not being real.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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22-03-2017, 11:39 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 09:17 PM)JesseB Wrote:  We keep asking this, he keeps avoiding it... pity.
Oohh oohh! Pick me, pick me...

Leviticus: 19. 18. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Matthew: 5. 43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew: 19. 19. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew: 22. 39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James: 2. 8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

You just demonstrated your abysmal reading comprehension. How about the actual verses that mention slavery, from rational wiki - Slavery In The Bible

The New Testament makes no condemnation of slavery and does no more than admonish slaves to be obedient and their masters not to be unfair. Paul, or whoever wrote the epistles, at no time suggested there was anything wrong with slavery. One could speculate that this might have been because he wanted to avoid upsetting the many slave owners in the early Christian congregations or to keep on good political terms with the Roman government. Or, more probably, he simply thought slavery was an acceptable fact of life as did practically everyone else at the time.

Ephesians 6:5-8 (NASB): 5Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.

Christian slaves were told to obey their masters "for the sake of the cause" and be especially obedient to Christian masters:

1 Timothy 6:1-2 (NASB): 1All who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. 2Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.

There are instructions for Christian slave owners to treat their slaves well.

Ephesians 6:9 (NASB): 9And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

Colossians 4:1 (NASB) 1Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.[6]

One passage often cited by apologists as supposed evidence for New Testament condemnation of slavery is 1 Timothy 1:10. However, as the King James version accurately translates, this condemnation is of "men stealers" (Greek: andrapodistais),[7] i.e. slave raiders who kidnapped and sold people as slaves, not slave traders or slave holders in general. So Paul only singled out slave raiders to be considered "lawless and rebellious," and to be categorized with murderers, homosexuals, liars and oath breakers.

The rather bland admonishment to slave masters by Paul is more than balanced by the demands for absolute obedience made of slaves. It is also rather telling that the masters are likened to God and Jesus, while the masters are simply told that they have a higher lord. So much for Jesus as the embodiment of the underdog - Paul could have pointed to Jesus' imprisonment and death as a cautionary tale to slave masters that even humble(d) characters can be important.[8]

Before the apologist plays the "but Jesus didn't condone slavery"-card, following all these Pauline examples, try reading Matthew 18:25, where Jesus uses slaves in a parable and has no qualms about recommending that not only a slave but also his wife and family be sold, while in other parables Jesus recommends that disobedient slaves should be beaten (Luke 12:47) or even killed (Matthew 24:51).

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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