Logic vs. Theism
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22-03-2017, 11:44 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 08:56 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 09:16 PM)JesseB Wrote:  The universe doesn't conform to the will of humans, or gods, or anything else you can conceive of. The universe, reality, just is. Regardless of what we wish, or want, or think, that isn't going to change.

The only thing that's ever come close to conforming the world to our wants, is our application of science. Our intentional manipulation made possible through our understanding of how the universe works.

That's it exactly. Ayn Rand said that the best and simplest formulation was that of Francis Bacon: Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.
That makes no sense. We can see all of nature follows preset laws and or instinct.

faith in selfless unity for good
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22-03-2017, 11:47 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:43 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Again you seem to be saying that all theistic thought is the product of the mind and as such not conducive of actual reality. I would agree.

But to say that there is an ultimate causal force behind, or rather responsible for the start, and as such, the end of the formation of all existence or creation or formation or whatever other word you like to use.

As far as stolen what have you; because a thing isn't readily definable or observable now in this time with our limited understanding and resources doesn't mean it isn't real, or is imaginary, or supernatural; it only shows the limits of our own perception at this time.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

Translation: You can't prove it's not god!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-03-2017, 11:48 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:33 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 09:17 PM)JesseB Wrote:  We keep asking this, he keeps avoiding it... pity.
Oohh oohh! Pick me, pick me...

Leviticus: 19. 18. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Matthew: 5. 43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew: 19. 19. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew: 22. 39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James: 2. 8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

> Oh, right! I forgot the biblical apologist's favorite ace in the hole: The Bible MEANS something other than what it SAYS. Dodgy
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22-03-2017, 11:49 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:47 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 11:43 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Again you seem to be saying that all theistic thought is the product of the mind and as such not conducive of actual reality. I would agree.

But to say that there is an ultimate causal force behind, or rather responsible for the start, and as such, the end of the formation of all existence or creation or formation or whatever other word you like to use.

As far as stolen what have you; because a thing isn't readily definable or observable now in this time with our limited understanding and resources doesn't mean it isn't real, or is imaginary, or supernatural; it only shows the limits of our own perception at this time.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

Translation: You can't prove it's not god!
Just as I cannot prove it is.

All evidence leads to an ultimate cause.

The universe is not utter chaos.



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22-03-2017, 11:49 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:43 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Again you seem to be saying that all theistic thought is the product of the mind and as such not conducive of actual reality. I would agree.

"conducive of actual reality"? Stick to words you know.

Quote:But to say that there is an ultimate causal force behind, or rather responsible for the start, and as such, the end of the formation of all existence or creation or formation or whatever other word you like to use.

I have no clue what that sentence fragment is supposed to mean. I don't speak gibberish. We do not know of any "ultimate causal force" and "the end of the formation of all existence" is meaningless.

Quote:As far as stolen what have you; because a thing isn't readily definable or observable now in this time with our limited understanding and resources doesn't mean it isn't real, or is imaginary, or supernatural; it only shows the limits of our own perception at this time.

I think I might actually agree with most of that... what you omit is that if something is not definable or observable then it is irrational to believe that it exists. The time to believe is when there is evidence for the claim and not before.

You are not rational. You need help. Get some.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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22-03-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:49 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 11:47 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Translation: You can't prove it's not god!
Just as I cannot prove it is.

All evidence leads to an ultimate cause.

The universe is not utter chaos.



faith in selfless unity for good

That's an interesting, yet I suspect vapid, claim, show this evidence.

Do you even know what evidence is? It's not an argument or a bible verse.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-03-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:44 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  That makes no sense. We can see all of nature follows preset laws and or instinct.

We have defined "laws" to describe how the natural universe operates. There is no justification for assuming you know why they work or that they were caused to be the way they are.

(22-03-2017 11:49 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 11:47 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Translation: You can't prove it's not god!
Just as I cannot prove it is.

Then why waste our time? We care about things that can be demonstrated to be true. You care about your personal fantasies.

Quote:All evidence leads to an ultimate cause.

Even if I agreed with that, which I do not, there is no justification for assigning a definition of that cause. It would be an unknown until you can find... wait for it... evidence.

Quote:The universe is not utter chaos.

Which is irrelevant unless you can demonstrate that an uncaused universe would be "utter chaos". If you studied chaos theory at all you'd see that one of the first things it shows is that order can arise spontaneously. Your whole claim is based on ignorance.

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22-03-2017, 11:57 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:43 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ...As far as stolen what have you; because a thing isn't readily definable or observable now in this time with our limited understanding and resources doesn't mean it isn't real, or is imaginary, or supernatural; it only shows the limits of our own perception at this time.

Are you claiming that things that are said to be unreal, imaginary, or supernatural in the 21st century were known to exist and were seen in biblical times, and that we've now lost those perceptive powers? Is that due to evolution?

And would you not say that gods are supernatural (things beyond nature)?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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22-03-2017, 12:03 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:43 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Again you seem to be saying that all theistic thought is the product of the mind and as such not conducive of actual reality. I would agree.

But to say that there is an ultimate causal force behind, or rather responsible for the start, and as such, the end of the formation of all existence or creation or formation or whatever other word you like to use.

As far as stolen what have you; because a thing isn't readily definable or observable now in this time with our limited understanding and resources doesn't mean it isn't real, or is imaginary, or supernatural; it only shows the limits of our own perception at this time.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

I have not said this. I've said that theism affirms the primacy of consciousness and in doing so it is incompatible with logic

Pops, the truth of the primacy of existence is perceptually self evident. If you think that somewhere, somehow there exists a consciousness out there that we just haven't observed yet, that enjoys primacy over its objects, then you embrace a contradiction. You are saying that the universe has two fundamentally contradictory natures. You are saying that the objects of consciousness have primacy over the subject of consciousness and the objects of consciousness also do not have primacy over the subject of consciousness. A direct contradiction. So again you deny logic.

You are attempting to solve one contradiction by embracing another. Very invalid.

Either the objects of consciousness exist independent of consciousness or they don't. There's no in between here. Another law of logic.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2017, 12:04 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 11:44 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 08:56 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  That's it exactly. Ayn Rand said that the best and simplest formulation was that of Francis Bacon: Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.
That makes no sense. We can see all of nature follows preset laws and or instinct.

faith in selfless unity for good

You clearly do not have any understanding of what a "natural law" is.... This is really sad.

A Hypothesis, is an idea based on various evidences for how the world MIGHT work.

A Theory is when testing show's that that evidence which supports said hypothesis demonstrates how the world DOES work (to the best of our current understanding, the more tests and evidence the more confidence we gain in said theory)

A Natural Law is essentially a Theory that has been shown to have the maximum reliability, it DESCRIBES the natural world, it does not COMMAND reality. Also Natural Law's are very specific and narrow in scope. Why? Because the universe is a highly complex system. This is why I think Einstein failed to find his "Theory of Everything" a nice idea that he liked, that I think was doomed to failure.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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