Logic vs. Theism
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22-03-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 12:51 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 12:39 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I'm trying to think of a simple way to picture the concept that you are explaining to pops. Saying a god created the universe would be like saying a baby tiger ate it's mom before it was born. The baby tiger is dependent on it's mom, so that's impossible and nonsensical.

Existence requires physicality, consciousness depends on physicality, it cannot precede it.
Wait.... What? Physicality in no way determines existence; especially when speaking of metaphysics. That's like saying all existence came from the big bang but absolutely nothing in any form whatsoever existed before it. Nonsense.

faith in selfless unity for good

Consciousness is dependent on existence. Consciousness requires something to be conscious of. A consciousness without anything to be conscious of is a contradiction in terms. I did not catch the part about physicality. I would not put it that way. I would say consciousness depends on existence. Whatever exists, exists, in whatever form it exists.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2017, 01:43 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 12:58 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 12:51 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Wait.... What? Physicality in no way determines existence; especially when speaking of metaphysics. That's like saying all existence came from the big bang but absolutely nothing in any form whatsoever existed before it. Nonsense.

faith in selfless unity for good

There's your conceptual disconnect, there is evidence of consciousness evolving physically over time, there is zero evidence of matter springing from consciousness.
There is zero evidence of matter springing from non matter whatsoever. We cannot go that far back nor do we have the slightest understanding of what may have been prior to the big bang.

What were you saying about a disconnect?

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22-03-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 01:43 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 12:58 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  There's your conceptual disconnect, there is evidence of consciousness evolving physically over time, there is zero evidence of matter springing from consciousness.
There is zero evidence of matter springing from non matter whatsoever. We cannot go that far back nor do we have the slightest understanding of what may have been prior to the big bang.

What were you saying about a disconnect?

faith in selfless unity for good

None of that implies a god. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-03-2017, 01:48 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 01:46 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 01:43 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  There is zero evidence of matter springing from non matter whatsoever. We cannot go that far back nor do we have the slightest understanding of what may have been prior to the big bang.

What were you saying about a disconnect?

faith in selfless unity for good

None of that implies a god. Drinking Beverage
Likewise it doesn't imply no GOD, and actually all things point to an ultimate cause.

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22-03-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 01:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 01:46 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  None of that implies a god. Drinking Beverage
Likewise it doesn't imply no GOD, and actually all things point to an ultimate cause.

faith in selfless unity for good

CITATION NEEDED

Please provide evidence for such claims when said claims are made.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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22-03-2017, 01:55 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 01:43 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 12:58 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  There's your conceptual disconnect, there is evidence of consciousness evolving physically over time, there is zero evidence of matter springing from consciousness.
There is zero evidence of matter springing from non matter whatsoever. We cannot go that far back nor do we have the slightest understanding of what may have been prior to the big bang.

What were you saying about a disconnect?

faith in selfless unity for good

Agreed. There is zero evidence of matter springing from non-matter. Isn't God supposed to be immaterial?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2017, 01:59 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 01:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 01:46 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  None of that implies a god. Drinking Beverage
Likewise it doesn't imply no GOD, and actually all things point to an ultimate cause.

faith in selfless unity for good

So we're back to -You can't prove it's not!

Boring....

More interesting would be for you to provide a falsifiable claim for this alleged creator's existence.

What kind of evidence would show the god hypothesis to be false?

Perhaps the obvious evidence that we are not the center of the universe?

[Image: YouAreHere.jpg]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-03-2017, 02:02 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 01:59 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 01:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Likewise it doesn't imply no GOD, and actually all things point to an ultimate cause.

faith in selfless unity for good

So we're back to -You can't prove it's not!

Boring....

More interesting would be for you to provide a falsifiable claim for this alleged creator's existence.

What kind of evidence would show the god hypothesis to be false?

Perhaps the obvious evidence that we are not the center of the universe?

[Image: YouAreHere.jpg]

THANK YOU! I was wondering where I left my map. (hehehe)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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22-03-2017, 02:02 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
Cause and effect

The visible lack of chaos in observable existence.

The fact that all observable existence can be perfectly defined with mathematics.

The fact that all things seem to have a life cycle or designated path (really just lack of chaos again)

The fact that there is no evidence for coincidence or chance.

The very fact that we have emotion that assigns significance to things shoes that there is purpose to life and as such; existence as a whole.

I can go on but am quite tied up at the moment.

peace

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22-03-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(22-03-2017 01:59 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 01:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Likewise it doesn't imply no GOD, and actually all things point to an ultimate cause.

faith in selfless unity for good

So we're back to -You can't prove it's not!

Boring....

More interesting would be for you to provide a falsifiable claim for this alleged creator's existence.

What kind of evidence would show the god hypothesis to be false?

Perhaps the obvious evidence that we are not the center of the universe?

[Image: YouAreHere.jpg]
I'm sorry, why do we need to be in the center of the known universe in order for there to be a cause of existence?

faith in selfless unity for good
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