Logic vs. Theism
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23-03-2017, 06:32 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 06:25 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 06:16 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Kick off? Could you reword please?

I'm not attempting to divert, and the subject matter is definitely worth discussing. I'm just not getting what you are saying about kick off. I'm guessing you mean leave us to our own selves. So you are asking why GOD would instill freedom in us and too set temptation in front of us.

I believe it is how it must have been done. If we wouldn't have freedom then we would be prisoners. If we didn't have choices then we wouldn't have freedom. For freedom to choose to actually be a truth one must have both the ability to choose and options to decide upon.

Past that I would say that it was a means to an end, or rather the way for us to learn of our potential.

I do admit that the fall is my weakest area and that I am still learning.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good
Ok, sorry, as that may be a word only used in the UK, but to "kick-off" is to be angry/shout at somebody.

Anyway, What I'm trying to say is, why create something and give it free will, then be surprised when we use our free will? And if god KNEW it would happen, whats the point? Like seriously just think for a second, why would 'God' create the earth and the universe, create this perfect paradise of 'Eden' where the animals talk, you have all the food you like, and there is the apparent feeling of no pain/suffereing, all to be thrown away when man eats from the tree of knowledge of good/evil..........which is something he KNEW would happen?

Can't you see how stupid that is? God creates the universe. God creates man, women, all plants and animals, and also creates a literal perfect habitat for them all, but gets pissed off when Man does something HE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN?

Facepalm
I do agree. It is nonsensical and illogical. It is one area of the Bible that I still have trouble with. It is a poor attempt to explain away pain and death and shame.

May GOD guide me aright, and if I speak ill of the truth and lead any wrong, may I be recompenced ten fold that I might learn in my stubbornness.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good
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23-03-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
At work.

Hello Pops. Thumbsup

I think you missed the point of the whole "Problem in Eden" thing.

Before eating of the fruit, Adam & Eve could not have actually had complete 'Free will'. As they lacked certain, rather important, aspects of knowledge about things.

Since it was the eating of said fruit which "Opened their eyes".

Do you now see the problem Pops?
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23-03-2017, 06:40 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 06:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 06:25 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Ok, sorry, as that may be a word only used in the UK, but to "kick-off" is to be angry/shout at somebody.

Anyway, What I'm trying to say is, why create something and give it free will, then be surprised when we use our free will? And if god KNEW it would happen, whats the point? Like seriously just think for a second, why would 'God' create the earth and the universe, create this perfect paradise of 'Eden' where the animals talk, you have all the food you like, and there is the apparent feeling of no pain/suffereing, all to be thrown away when man eats from the tree of knowledge of good/evil..........which is something he KNEW would happen?

Can't you see how stupid that is? God creates the universe. God creates man, women, all plants and animals, and also creates a literal perfect habitat for them all, but gets pissed off when Man does something HE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN?

Facepalm
I do agree. It is nonsensical and illogical. It is one area of the Bible that I still have trouble with. It is a poor attempt to explain away pain and death and shame.

May GOD guide me aright, and if I speak ill of the truth and lead any wrong, may I be recompenced ten fold that I might learn in my stubbornness.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

All I would suggest is, if you think the START of the book doesn't make any sense and it's illogical ,[which it is], why would the rest of it be any better?

I do think that there is some stuff to take out of the bible, to use in a positive manner,as there is from all religions but it's not meant to be taken literally. It's very provable that a lot of the "big" stories just didn't happen at all.

Nobody can guide you but yourself. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe, just use your noggin a bit and work things out for yourself, and you might see things a bit differently. Believe in whatever you like, but be honest and real with yourself and you'll grow as a person.

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23-03-2017, 07:32 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 06:01 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 05:44 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  I suppose the example would be: Why create beings with free will and then put something in this supposed Eden with them, that they can't touch?

If God was happy with his creations, walking about in their fig leaves and doing whatever it is they did, he/she/it could just NOT have put the tree of knowledge in there, for Man to eat from?

God would have to be a pretty big asshole to purposely put something in there, most likely fully well knowing that saying "hey yo, don't eat from that tree mate....oh by the way I'm just popping out for a bit..." and then wondering why they went and ate from it lol.
Adam and Eve where deceived of them selves. Did GOD know it would happen? Of course. Does that make GOD unjust? No. Man is responsible for their direction. If we didn't have freedom then we would be prisoners basically. I do not exactly conform to the doctrine of original sin but find that man has potential for good and evil.... Naturally.

faith in selfless unity for good

Threats of death and free will are incompatible with each other. When you put a gun to someone's head, it's exactly their free will that you don't want them to exercise. Also, if Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil it would be extremely unjust to punish them for doing wrong. Only a rational being can rightly be held accountable for its actions. If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil then they certainly were not rational beings.

The whole story is just irrational nonsense. It's authors show a profound level of cluelessness about man's mind and the nature of knowledge which is exactly what you would expect from primitives.

That people look to such a book for wisdom is one of the most tragic things I know of.

I came to the conclusion long ago that the first book of the Bible, in fact its first chapter, is a separator. It's designed to separate the critical thinkers from the sheeple. If you'll buy into this, you'll accept anything. If not then you are going to be a trouble maker. We, the writers of this book don't want any critical thinkers because they are too hard to control and will rile the sheep.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-03-2017, 08:07 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
I presume the very first bible has little asterisk in the back that says "All characters and stories in this book are fictional"

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23-03-2017, 08:13 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 06:40 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 06:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I do agree. It is nonsensical and illogical. It is one area of the Bible that I still have trouble with. It is a poor attempt to explain away pain and death and shame.

May GOD guide me aright, and if I speak ill of the truth and lead any wrong, may I be recompenced ten fold that I might learn in my stubbornness.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

All I would suggest is, if you think the START of the book doesn't make any sense and it's illogical ,[which it is], why would the rest of it be any better?

I do think that there is some stuff to take out of the bible, to use in a positive manner,as there is from all religions but it's not meant to be taken literally. It's very provable that a lot of the "big" stories just didn't happen at all.

Nobody can guide you but yourself. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe, just use your noggin a bit and work things out for yourself, and you might see things a bit differently. Believe in whatever you like, but be honest and real with yourself and you'll grow as a person.
Good post and advice. I would never advise any to take any sacred religious texts literally. They just aren't meant to be interpreted that way in my honest humble opinion.

peace friend

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23-03-2017, 08:38 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 06:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 06:25 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Ok, sorry, as that may be a word only used in the UK, but to "kick-off" is to be angry/shout at somebody.

Anyway, What I'm trying to say is, why create something and give it free will, then be surprised when we use our free will? And if god KNEW it would happen, whats the point? Like seriously just think for a second, why would 'God' create the earth and the universe, create this perfect paradise of 'Eden' where the animals talk, you have all the food you like, and there is the apparent feeling of no pain/suffereing, all to be thrown away when man eats from the tree of knowledge of good/evil..........which is something he KNEW would happen?

Can't you see how stupid that is? God creates the universe. God creates man, women, all plants and animals, and also creates a literal perfect habitat for them all, but gets pissed off when Man does something HE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN?

Facepalm
I do agree. It is nonsensical and illogical. It is one area of the Bible that I still have trouble with. It is a poor attempt to explain away pain and death and shame.

May GOD guide me aright, and if I speak ill of the truth and lead any wrong, may I be recompenced ten fold that I might learn in my stubbornness.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

Thank you again. All of the theists that have responded to the OP have confirmed what I said about theism. The book of Genesis is the foundation. If it is not sound then neither is the building built on top of it. You say yourself that it is illogical. Then why not reject it? Without the doctrine of original sin, there's no need for Jesus to sacrifice himself to pay for everyone's original sin.

You are saying that you don't accept the foundation but you do accept the building. That's the fallacy of the stolen concept in a nutshell.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-03-2017, 08:44 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 06:39 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Hello Pops. Thumbsup

I think you missed the point of the whole "Problem in Eden" thing.

Before eating of the fruit, Adam & Eve could not have actually had complete 'Free will'. As they lacked certain, rather important, aspects of knowledge about things.

Since it was the eating of said fruit which "Opened their eyes".

Do you now see the problem Pops?

> You know, I brought up a very similar point when I was in Catholic grade school. I was basically told to sit down and shut up. Later, I had to write a number of catechism passages several times as punishment. Angry
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23-03-2017, 08:50 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 08:44 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 06:39 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Hello Pops. Thumbsup

I think you missed the point of the whole "Problem in Eden" thing.

Before eating of the fruit, Adam & Eve could not have actually had complete 'Free will'. As they lacked certain, rather important, aspects of knowledge about things.

Since it was the eating of said fruit which "Opened their eyes".

Do you now see the problem Pops?

> You know, I brought up a very similar point when I was in Catholic grade school. I was basically told to sit down and shut up. Later, I had to write a number of catechism passages several times as punishment. Angry

Ha Ha, the same thing happened to me at age 7 when I asked where Cain's wife came from except it was a Methodist church and I didn't have to write anything. They were more polite and just told me not to ask so many questions. I do believe that was the thing that put me on the path to atheism.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-03-2017, 10:45 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
You really should watch the cartoon, Pops. It's funny and brief. I really like that guy's work.

It does through humor what pedantic explanations might be able to communicate, but less effectively, I think.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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