Logic vs. Theism
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23-03-2017, 11:10 AM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
Yup, these fine people have made the points I would have made. Prolly worded better than I would have worded them. I would have told you myself had I not been sleeping, I have a busy day planned today, so I don't have time to play with you....

I'll be around more tomorrow. Most likely.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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23-03-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 06:01 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Adam and Eve where deceived of them selves. Did GOD know it would happen? Of course. Does that make GOD unjust? No. Man is responsible for their direction.

According to the mythology, god created humans who did not understand right from wrong and then deliberately placed them in a situation where they would do wrong and blamed them for it. That is about as unjust as you can get. Stop making excuses for a thug god.


(23-03-2017 06:08 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  The worship of GOD is for the sake of creation. Not the other way around.

That's word salad whichever way you look at it.

(23-03-2017 06:16 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I believe it is how it must have been done. If we wouldn't have freedom then we would be prisoners. If we didn't have choices then we wouldn't have freedom. For freedom to choose to actually be a truth one must have both the ability to choose and options to decide upon.

You can't be held responsible for the ability to choose when you aren't given understanding of the consequences. It all makes no sense because it's just a primitive myth to try to explain things people didn't understand.

Quote:I do admit that the fall is my weakest area and that I am still learning.

The ability to think rationally is your weakest area.

(23-03-2017 06:32 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I do agree. It is nonsensical and illogical. It is one area of the Bible that I still have trouble with. It is a poor attempt to explain away pain and death and shame.

Because it is a primitive attempt at explaining things by people who didn't have much understanding of how things work. Trying to treat it as something profound is the error.

Quote:May GOD guide me aright, and if I speak ill of the truth and lead any wrong, may I be recompenced ten fold that I might learn in my stubbornness.

Facepalm

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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23-03-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 08:13 AM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  ... I would never advise any to take any sacred religious texts literally. They just aren't meant to be interpreted that way in my honest humble opinion.

If a phrase cannot be taken literally—that is, the use of those words exactly according to their precise definitions or proper meanings—then they must be interpreted as figurative; similes, personification, metaphors, hyperbole, etc.

And figurative language holds no evidential truth because of that.

EG: Does the phrase "the four corners of the earth" imply that the earth is a flat quadrilateral plane? Or does the Hebrew word kanaph mean extremity, rather than corner, as some claim? And which could imply a spherical earth? But then "the four extremities of the earth" doesn't make any sense, as a sphere only has a single extremity, that is, its visible circumference.

An atheist claims the former; a theist claims the latter. More importantly of course, science proves the latter unequivocally, whereas the biblical terminology leads to confusion and inherent errors of interpretation.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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23-03-2017, 02:02 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 10:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You really should watch the cartoon, Pops. It's funny and brief. I really like that guy's work.

It does through humor what pedantic explanations might be able to communicate, but less effectively, I think.

How appropriate. A cartoon to explain a cartoon view of the universe.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-03-2017, 06:56 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 06:39 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Hello Pops. Thumbsup

I think you missed the point of the whole "Problem in Eden" thing.

Before eating of the fruit, Adam & Eve could not have actually had complete 'Free will'. As they lacked certain, rather important, aspects of knowledge about things.

Since it was the eating of said fruit which "Opened their eyes".

Do you now see the problem Pops?

Sublapsarianism
Superlapsarianism
Infralapsarianism

Google these terms. The religious folk have been arguing among themselves for centuries, trying to figure out this Adam, Eve and free will thing. There is still no consensus and never will be. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Some theist claim we have free will, others deny it. Whether Adam and Eve ever had free will is from that theoretical viewpoint is not anything anybody will settle any time soon.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

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23-03-2017, 07:04 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(23-03-2017 02:02 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(23-03-2017 10:45 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You really should watch the cartoon, Pops. It's funny and brief. I really like that guy's work.

It does through humor what pedantic explanations might be able to communicate, but less effectively, I think.

How appropriate. A cartoon to explain a cartoon view of the universe.

I thought a cartoon might be easier to understand for the religious folk in the room, and more fun for the rest of us Smile

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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23-03-2017, 07:20 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2017 07:25 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Logic vs. Theism
So I have a question, if pops doesn't think the bible is literally true, which bits of the bible does he think are literally true. If the bible contains some lies, what justification for saying, well this didn't actually happen, but clearly this one did. What evidence does he show to distinguish the reality from fantasy here?

To remain religious we could start with 2 positions and a gradient in between.
1 the bible and every story and claim are "literally" true in every way, all of the things the bibles says happened did so, in exactly the same way they were written. This is an extreme position that almost my entire family and extended family hold to. So I'm quite familiar with it.

2 the bible is entirely figurative, and none of the events (not even the Resurrection) are actual events, they are simply "divine revaluation" of stories intended to send a message (to my knowledge no christian actually holds this position, it seems far more logical to me to hold this position if you wanted to be a christian since no facts back up the rest of the book, but whatever), you could sort of try and still be a christian under this assumption. I mean in a way you'd even be right even if there's no god, after all its all in your mind, the message is how you choose to have happiness and escape your fear of death. Sure you'll still die but you won't be afraid of it while you're still alive. And after your dead who cares if there's really an afterlife, if there is you'll be happy if there's not you won't know anyway. This isn't intended as a straw man, I don't know if this concept has ever been put forward by anyone before, and there may be other ways to hold this position that I haven't thought of.... so...

realistically speaking no matter where you fall on this scale (the bible is literally factually true in every way, or the entire thing is some story meant to send a good message), there's going to be flaws. Anywhere in the middle you're going to have problems justifying which stories you believe in, and which you think are metaphors. So the question, which one's you think happened and which ones you don't is I think a pertinent question here, given your recent statement above.

Clearly from my perspective the most rational position to hold is one where the bible and Christianity is bullshit. This is a question about what kind of theist you identify with, or an attempt to better understand your position. Understand that as a non theist I constantly hear theists try to argue, but they intentionally remain vague about their position and move goal posts whenever something becomes inconvenient. This is wholly dishonest, and I'd really like to nail down your position a bit better. Hence the question.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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28-03-2017, 08:10 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
See god god brings judgement to give oppressed people for the better. Since we can reason there has to be a judgement for our sins.
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28-03-2017, 08:46 PM
Logic vs. Theism
(28-03-2017 08:10 PM)socialistview Wrote:  See god god brings judgement to give oppressed people for the better. Since we can reason there has to be a judgement for our sins.


What does this mean? How do you know here is such a thing as "sin."
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28-03-2017, 09:03 PM
RE: Logic vs. Theism
(28-03-2017 08:10 PM)socialistview Wrote:  See god god brings judgement to give oppressed people for the better. Since we can reason there has to be a judgement for our sins.

You can't reason there is such a thing as sin. You can think it, you can feel it, you can declare or assert it to be so. But you can not get there from logic, reason, the scientific method. All you can do is say I like this idea called sin therefor it must be so.

Just like with your god, or the soul. If these things exist there would be evidence to demonstrate it as such (evidence that pretty much EVERY scientist would accept), you can not "reason" imaginary concepts into existence.

I know, I've tried.... Yup dragons still don't actually fucking exist. Damn.....

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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