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16-10-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Logic
(16-10-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's not infinite regress, because your first assumption is that all universes in the possible multiverse have space and time. There is no time without light and there was light added to darkness.

The idea of universes without space or time is utterly incoherent.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-10-2015, 07:18 PM
RE: Logic
(16-10-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 04:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  Where was God when He did this?

In a meta-universe?

Who or what created that meta-universe?

Meta-God?

Where was Meta-God when He did this?

In a meta-meta-universe?
.
.
.
Only a special pleading can stop this infinite regress.

Pro tip: Special pleading is a logical fallacy.

It's not infinite regress, because your first assumption is that all universes in the possible multiverse have space and time. There is no time without light and there was light added to darkness.

You're making that up and it doesn't even make sense. Why would you think there is no time without light?

Quote:And as has been patiently pointed out to you by The Q, the infinite regress problem is endemic to your idea, Chas, that there were an infinite number of eternal and expanding universes before this present one--and where did they come from? They came from a whom as in He.

My idea? I'm not the one claiming "outside the universe", you idiot.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-10-2015, 07:31 PM
RE: Logic
(16-10-2015 06:16 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's not infinite regress, because your first assumption is that all universes in the possible multiverse have space and time.

The idea of universes without space or time is utterly incoherent.

I've been pondering that ever since he posted it. What would it look like? Would it could it even look like something. ... Of course I'm trippin' balls so your mileage may vary.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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16-10-2015, 09:57 PM
RE: Logic
(16-10-2015 07:31 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I've been pondering that ever since he posted it. What would it look like? Would it could it even look like something. ... Of course I'm trippin' balls so your mileage may vary.

By definition, it couldn't look like anything, because senses require time to operate. You can't see anything if there is no time for your eyes to be absorbing light in.

It also couldn't consist of anything, because there would be no space for matter - or any other given (and likewise incoherent) substrate - to exist within.

No time, no interactions. No space, no place for things to exist and interact within.

No interaction, no existence.

No existence, no universe.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-10-2015, 10:21 PM
RE: Logic
(16-10-2015 09:57 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 07:31 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I've been pondering that ever since he posted it. What would it look like? Would it could it even look like something. ... Of course I'm trippin' balls so your mileage may vary.

By definition, it couldn't look like anything, because senses require time to operate. You can't see anything if there is no time for your eyes to be absorbing light in.

It also couldn't consist of anything, because there would be no space for matter - or any other given (and likewise incoherent) substrate - to exist within.

No time, no interactions. No space, no place for things to exist and interact within.

No interaction, no existence.

No existence, no universe.

I'm gonna check that shit out.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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20-10-2015, 07:35 AM
RE: Logic
(13-10-2015 01:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 12:52 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  The bible doesn't come out and say that god was alone, but you can get there through deductive reasoning. The bible says he created all things and that he is eternal. If other beings are among all things and he has always existed, then there has to be a point prior to his creating other beings where he was alone.
And I say to you this: the Bible does NOT claim that eternal God created "all things".
The Bible claims that God created heaven and earth and then all things that are in heaven and on earth.
But the Bible doesn't explain to you what heaven is. Is heaven our galaxy - Milky way? Is heaven a group of galaxies? The Bible claims that there are third heaven. Does fourth heaven exist? or fifth?
Which heaven did Moses talk about?
The Bible doesn't say that heaven and the earth are the only things that exist.
The Bible doesn't claim that God created heaven and earth out of nothing, or does it?

As I lack a belief in any god, a heaven or an afterlife I have no opinion on any of those things, to me they are just beliefs others hold. But you are a believer in god so surely you must have views on these things:

If god did not create 'all things' what/who do you consider did? Or where did these things arise from and how?
As heaven is not explained what do you consider heaven to be to be? And as a xtian what informs your decision to live a life that will gain you entry to a place that is not discussed or explained for eternity. What if it turns out to be a place that you are not comfortable with?

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

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20-10-2015, 12:34 PM
RE: Logic
(16-10-2015 01:06 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 12:53 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is that a serious question? How do I know from a sentence where one being creates a thing that the being that created the thing pre-existed the thing? Is that really and honestly a question?

The idea of Gods isn't profoundly described. Where is definitive proof a God cannot of created itself and everything else all at once? You act like, what how could exist like that in the real world?... you're talking about a God, where there is no applications of so called limitations.

I feel sorry for you, that you're really incapable of beyond simple thought if this is so outlandish to you. If you understood the direct situation of the phrasing, and make no presumptions. You actually can learn and see the flaws in others reasoning.

I suppose God could have indeed formed the universe very early on, but He was in the beginning before there was light/time/space a beginning for this universe.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-10-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: Logic
(16-10-2015 07:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 12:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's not infinite regress, because your first assumption is that all universes in the possible multiverse have space and time. There is no time without light and there was light added to darkness.

You're making that up and it doesn't even make sense. Why would you think there is no time without light?

Quote:And as has been patiently pointed out to you by The Q, the infinite regress problem is endemic to your idea, Chas, that there were an infinite number of eternal and expanding universes before this present one--and where did they come from? They came from a whom as in He.

My idea? I'm not the one claiming "outside the universe", you idiot.

You are unaware that time is tied to light?

You are unaware that your own stated claim that the universe was always here, even if has always been expanding and contracting, goes against the laws of nature?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-10-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Logic
(16-10-2015 09:57 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 07:31 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I've been pondering that ever since he posted it. What would it look like? Would it could it even look like something. ... Of course I'm trippin' balls so your mileage may vary.

By definition, it couldn't look like anything, because senses require time to operate. You can't see anything if there is no time for your eyes to be absorbing light in.

It also couldn't consist of anything, because there would be no space for matter - or any other given (and likewise incoherent) substrate - to exist within.

No time, no interactions. No space, no place for things to exist and interact within.

No interaction, no existence.

No existence, no universe.

You are far more intelligent than I'd given you credit for previously. Now you can say with authority, with impunity, what exists outside this space and time, how it works and functions or what the limitations would be on a God outside this universe. Wow.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-10-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Logic
(20-10-2015 07:35 AM)Eva Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 01:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  And I say to you this: the Bible does NOT claim that eternal God created "all things".
The Bible claims that God created heaven and earth and then all things that are in heaven and on earth.
But the Bible doesn't explain to you what heaven is. Is heaven our galaxy - Milky way? Is heaven a group of galaxies? The Bible claims that there are third heaven. Does fourth heaven exist? or fifth?
Which heaven did Moses talk about?
The Bible doesn't say that heaven and the earth are the only things that exist.
The Bible doesn't claim that God created heaven and earth out of nothing, or does it?

As I lack a belief in any god, a heaven or an afterlife I have no opinion on any of those things, to me they are just beliefs others hold. But you are a believer in god so surely you must have views on these things:

If god did not create 'all things' what/who do you consider did? Or where did these things arise from and how?
As heaven is not explained what do you consider heaven to be to be? And as a xtian what informs your decision to live a life that will gain you entry to a place that is not discussed or explained for eternity. What if it turns out to be a place that you are not comfortable with?

Personally, I believe I will be comfortable in a utopia. I'm anticipating it.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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