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20-10-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: Logic
(20-10-2015 12:34 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-10-2015 01:06 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The idea of Gods isn't profoundly described. Where is definitive proof a God cannot of created itself and everything else all at once? You act like, what how could exist like that in the real world?... you're talking about a God, where there is no applications of so called limitations.

I feel sorry for you, that you're really incapable of beyond simple thought if this is so outlandish to you. If you understood the direct situation of the phrasing, and make no presumptions. You actually can learn and see the flaws in others reasoning.

I suppose God could have indeed formed the universe very early on, but He was in the beginning before there was light/time/space a beginning for this universe.

I'll give you "light" but there is absolutely no DIRECT indication that he was "before" or anything, God included was "before" the beginning when he created the heavens an earth. Nothing describes "begining" as before he created. That could have been one single instance for God.

At least in any of the English translated versions, Nothing there indicates or validates an existence "before" or not before. It doesn't indicate it either way. So unless it comes from initial translation or other passes/knowledge sources, the claim isn't logically there via the text.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-10-2015, 06:24 PM
RE: Logic
(20-10-2015 07:35 AM)Eva Wrote:  If god did not create 'all things' what/who do you consider did? Or where did these things arise from and how?
I am LDS and according to revelations from our God there are many other Gods/Creators. They also create worlds. There is eternal matter and there are Gods. Gods use eternal matter for their own purposes.
(20-10-2015 07:35 AM)Eva Wrote:  As heaven is not explained what do you consider heaven to be to be?
Heaven is all the worlds which our Gods created. How many worlds did our Gods creat or better to say "organize"? We don't know. We only know that there are lots of them and only Gods know this number.
(20-10-2015 07:35 AM)Eva Wrote:  And as a xtian what informs your decision to live a life that will gain you entry to a place that is not discussed or explained for eternity.
What if it turns out to be a place that you are not comfortable with?
Oh, it is explained. According to the revelations EVERY son and daughter of God will be comfortable where he or she will be.
If God lied and it turns out to be uncomfortable place I will kill myself. Big Grin

P.S. I love your nick and avatar. Eve or Eva is my favorite girl name and avatar is kind of Picasso style. I like Picasso. I was lucky to visit Picasso exhibition in LA, California.

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21-10-2015, 05:31 AM
RE: Logic
(20-10-2015 06:24 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 07:35 AM)Eva Wrote:  If god did not create 'all things' what/who do you consider did? Or where did these things arise from and how?
I am LDS and according to revelations from our God there are many other Gods/Creators. They also create worlds. There is eternal matter and there are Gods. Gods use eternal matter for their own purposes.
(20-10-2015 07:35 AM)Eva Wrote:  As heaven is not explained what do you consider heaven to be to be?
Heaven is all the worlds which our Gods created. How many worlds did our Gods creat or better to say "organize"? We don't know. We only know that there are lots of them and only Gods know this number.
(20-10-2015 07:35 AM)Eva Wrote:  And as a xtian what informs your decision to live a life that will gain you entry to a place that is not discussed or explained for eternity.
What if it turns out to be a place that you are not comfortable with?
Oh, it is explained. According to the revelations EVERY son and daughter of God will be comfortable where he or she will be.
If God lied and it turns out to be uncomfortable place I will kill myself. Big Grin

P.S. I love your nick and avatar. Eve or Eva is my favorite girl name and avatar is kind of Picasso style. I like Picasso. I was lucky to visit Picasso exhibition in LA, California.

Thanks for responding. I didn't realise LDS's believed in many gods.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

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21-10-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: Logic
(20-10-2015 12:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 12:34 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I suppose God could have indeed formed the universe very early on, but He was in the beginning before there was light/time/space a beginning for this universe.

I'll give you "light" but there is absolutely no DIRECT indication that he was "before" or anything, God included was "before" the beginning when he created the heavens an earth. Nothing describes "begining" as before he created. That could have been one single instance for God.

At least in any of the English translated versions, Nothing there indicates or validates an existence "before" or not before. It doesn't indicate it either way. So unless it comes from initial translation or other passes/knowledge sources, the claim isn't logically there via the text.

Well, and isn't it unusual to say this to an atheist, you are reading TOO MUCH of the Bible before drawing conclusions.

Consider this:

"In the beginning, God..."

and tell me what you think.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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21-10-2015, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2015 12:41 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Logic
(21-10-2015 12:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 12:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'll give you "light" but there is absolutely no DIRECT indication that he was "before" or anything, God included was "before" the beginning when he created the heavens an earth. Nothing describes "begining" as before he created. That could have been one single instance for God.

At least in any of the English translated versions, Nothing there indicates or validates an existence "before" or not before. It doesn't indicate it either way. So unless it comes from initial translation or other passes/knowledge sources, the claim isn't logically there via the text.

Well, and isn't it unusual to say this to an atheist, you are reading TOO MUCH of the Bible before drawing conclusions.

Consider this:

"In the beginning, God..."

and tell me what you think.

You passed English classes in your life right? You know what a sentence is and how a sentence structure works or did you forget that all stuff from the past.

That's still 1 sentence making one statement. The phrasing of it being written in a not simple sentence structure format of that nature doesn't alter anything there. Because you separate in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth, it's no different in context & meaning from In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Either structure, "in the beginning" is a transitional device(the language term) to emphasize the idea.

Btw, that's not even the most common way it's translated.
http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm
Like I said, I thought you talked about ancient greek/hebrew texts in the past. Why haven't you drummed up with what it says in the hebrew tongue verbatim yet, I even said I'd be willing to listen to that, "only in the legit tongue" argument for this statement.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-10-2015, 02:23 PM
RE: Logic
(21-10-2015 12:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-10-2015 12:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'll give you "light" but there is absolutely no DIRECT indication that he was "before" or anything, God included was "before" the beginning when he created the heavens an earth. Nothing describes "begining" as before he created. That could have been one single instance for God.

At least in any of the English translated versions, Nothing there indicates or validates an existence "before" or not before. It doesn't indicate it either way. So unless it comes from initial translation or other passes/knowledge sources, the claim isn't logically there via the text.

Well, and isn't it unusual to say this to an atheist, you are reading TOO MUCH of the Bible before drawing conclusions.

Consider this:

"In the beginning, God..."

and tell me what you think.
God decided to create a world. In the beginning(of creating this world) He created heaven and Earth. Then He created all things that in heaven and on Earth.

What is heaven? How big is it? How many more worlds(heavens) did God create before this world(heaven)?

God doesn't change, He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Does it mean that He ALWAYS creates?
He created heavens yesterday, He creates heavens today(may be even right now), and He will create new heavens forever.
It will be many "in the beginning..." in the future as it was in the past.
God is always the same. He is always Creator. He is always creating.

English is my second language.
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22-10-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: Logic
(21-10-2015 12:32 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 12:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Well, and isn't it unusual to say this to an atheist, you are reading TOO MUCH of the Bible before drawing conclusions.

Consider this:

"In the beginning, God..."

and tell me what you think.

You passed English classes in your life right? You know what a sentence is and how a sentence structure works or did you forget that all stuff from the past.

That's still 1 sentence making one statement. The phrasing of it being written in a not simple sentence structure format of that nature doesn't alter anything there. Because you separate in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth, it's no different in context & meaning from In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Either structure, "in the beginning" is a transitional device(the language term) to emphasize the idea.

Btw, that's not even the most common way it's translated.
http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm
Like I said, I thought you talked about ancient greek/hebrew texts in the past. Why haven't you drummed up with what it says in the hebrew tongue verbatim yet, I even said I'd be willing to listen to that, "only in the legit tongue" argument for this statement.

You are correct, most of the versions you cited do not add the comma.

In the beginning God created... everything we know. So which came first, the everything or God?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-10-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Logic
(22-10-2015 01:41 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 12:32 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You passed English classes in your life right? You know what a sentence is and how a sentence structure works or did you forget that all stuff from the past.

That's still 1 sentence making one statement. The phrasing of it being written in a not simple sentence structure format of that nature doesn't alter anything there. Because you separate in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth, it's no different in context & meaning from In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Either structure, "in the beginning" is a transitional device(the language term) to emphasize the idea.

Btw, that's not even the most common way it's translated.
http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm
Like I said, I thought you talked about ancient greek/hebrew texts in the past. Why haven't you drummed up with what it says in the hebrew tongue verbatim yet, I even said I'd be willing to listen to that, "only in the legit tongue" argument for this statement.

You are correct, most of the versions you cited do not add the comma.

In the beginning God created... everything we know. So which came first, the everything or God?

Is god not a thing?

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22-10-2015, 03:21 PM
RE: Logic
(22-10-2015 01:41 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-10-2015 12:32 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You passed English classes in your life right? You know what a sentence is and how a sentence structure works or did you forget that all stuff from the past.

That's still 1 sentence making one statement. The phrasing of it being written in a not simple sentence structure format of that nature doesn't alter anything there. Because you separate in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth, it's no different in context & meaning from In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Either structure, "in the beginning" is a transitional device(the language term) to emphasize the idea.

Btw, that's not even the most common way it's translated.
http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-1.htm
Like I said, I thought you talked about ancient greek/hebrew texts in the past. Why haven't you drummed up with what it says in the hebrew tongue verbatim yet, I even said I'd be willing to listen to that, "only in the legit tongue" argument for this statement.

You are correct, most of the versions you cited do not add the comma.

In the beginning God created... everything we know. So which came first, the everything or God?

There is nothing disconnecting the notion that God could of created God along with everything/Heavens and Earth at the exact same time.

If God created everything we know, God has created... you know GOD, which is apart of everything we know(so far at least in the acceptance of your view there is a God.)

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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22-10-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: Logic
(21-10-2015 02:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  What is heaven? How big is it? How many more worlds(heavens) did God create before this world(heaven)?
...
He created heavens yesterday, He creates heavens today(may be even right now), and He will create new heavens forever.

Goddam Alla did you just literally interpret "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." as being not imminent but immediate like Girly does. Heaven and Hell are both here and now. You decide which it is.

The LDS story is fanciful but I'm starting to think there aren't a lot of differences between their fundamental metaphysics and mine.

#sigh
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