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25-11-2015, 01:57 PM
RE: Logic
(24-11-2015 11:34 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(24-11-2015 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not even where I've been going with this--I'm continuing with the same line--changes slow or fast would have to happen simultaneously to make complex life thrive. Here's an analogy. You've been told marine life eventually, gradually became land-based life. What systems are different between sea and land creatures?

Reproduction, temperature regulation (could change one degree in the sea but 50 degrees on land in the same 24-hour block of time), digestive, excretion, respiration--not to mention food sources, access (reaching to get) food sources, etc.

If these things do not occur simultaneously the life doesn't make it on land--or in the sea. You could have all these things happening incrementally, slowly, but each one decreases the survivability of the sea creature unless it moves to land rapidly.

Citation please.

A citation is needed to demonstrate why multiple systems working in synchronicity are needed to live on land instead of in the sea? Drive your car into a lake and do your own testing. Gasp

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25-11-2015, 01:59 PM
RE: Logic
(24-11-2015 09:13 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(24-11-2015 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not even where I've been going with this--I'm continuing with the same line--changes slow or fast would have to happen simultaneously to make complex life thrive. Here's an analogy. You've been told marine life eventually, gradually became land-based life.

I will concede that I have been told that marine life did over a long period of time begin to develop terrestrial features which allowed them to better survive.
But I will add that I've been informed of this by my professors; people who have worked for decades to understand evolution; what it is, how it is and why it happens.
As a first-year, I welcome you to come visit Flinders University's School of Biological Sciences and enlighten the staff and student body with the correct information. I suggest you have graphs. From my own experience, I can tell you they love those things. Want them in everything.

(24-11-2015 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What systems are different between sea and land creatures?

Reproduction, temperature regulation (could change one degree in the sea but 50 degrees on land in the same 24-hour block of time), digestive, excretion, respiration--not to mention food sources, access (reaching to get) food sources, etc.

If these things do not occur simultaneously the life doesn't make it on land--or in the sea. You could have all these things happening incrementally, slowly, but each one decreases the survivability of the sea creature unless it moves to land rapidly.

Incremental changes from 'standard' fish-like structure to that of Tiktaalik (for instance) were not deleterious to the inheritors as they must have survived to propagate the trait. Or limbs are magical.
In fact, creatures that were progressively tiktaalike (see what I did there) probably received a considerable fitness (fitness being a biological term for the ability for an individual to survive and reproduce effectively) advantage as the pectoral girdle was slowly freed from the skull (slowly giving the creature a neck and all its advantages) and the pectoral fins developed into appendages capable of a considerable range of motion, allowing progressively more efficient hunting capability, in addition to the advantage of cover from predators as the modified fins allowed the fish to move in progressively shallower waters in later stages.

Your portrayal makes it seem as though you think scientists think things went on land at some point and suddenly went 'oh shit, we can't do the living' and changed accordingly.
To the view of my educators (and the scientific community at large), this is a warped idea of how things happened; mutations developed which furthered the ability of the inheritors to live better closer to the shore and from there, outside of water for short times: the earliest 'real' land-colonisers were basal amphibians, which depended on water for survival, but were able to move water bodies if there was a needed.
Not everything had to change at once to facilitate the evolution from fish to basal amphibians; changes were primarily skeletal (slow development of limbs) and respiration (the ability to better extract and retain oxygen eventually leading to pseudo-lungs). Diet didn't need to change, nor did reproduction or temperature regulation or other such things.

Furthermore, it must be kept in mind that such changes took place of millions of years; thus over countless generations, and across populations. It wasn't just one fish that started to develop lobe-fins and eventually wrist-like structures allowing them to walk on the sea bed and eventually land; the mutations that caused the subtle advantageous changes propagated more of things similar to themselves (let's hear it for imperfect replication) which would make more until additional mutations arose which proved advantageous and those spread and mixed and so-on until you have essentially primitive mudskippers with more water-time.
Animals only abandoned the water millions of years after the development of land-capable travel and open-air breathing when some developed harder skin better able to retain water, better limb placement and structure and egg-sacs (protip; we call the result of those adaptations reptiles.)

A very thoughtful post but you are barely touching the multiplicity of issues I've raised.

Overall, we must remember that science is concerned with material things, God with material things and with spiritual things. Just as our understanding of scientific fact is imperfect, we ourselves are imperfect. Jesus died and rose, the perfect for the imperfect. Trust Jesus and what He did for you on the cross-a horrible death-for forgiveness of imperfection (sin) and for eternal life!

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25-11-2015, 05:40 PM
RE: Logic
(25-11-2015 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-11-2015 11:34 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Citation please.

A citation is needed to demonstrate why multiple systems working in synchronicity are needed to live on land instead of in the sea? Drive your car into a lake and do your own testing. Gasp

For the love of truth, just fucking stop. Facepalm Have you no shame? Consider

Your ignorance is appalling. When are you going to read an actual book on evolution by an actual evolutionary biologist?
It is abundantly obvious that you have never done so, so just shut the fuck up. Angry

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-11-2015, 12:57 PM
RE: Logic
(25-11-2015 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-11-2015 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  A citation is needed to demonstrate why multiple systems working in synchronicity are needed to live on land instead of in the sea? Drive your car into a lake and do your own testing. Gasp

For the love of truth, just fucking stop. Facepalm Have you no shame? Consider

Your ignorance is appalling. When are you going to read an actual book on evolution by an actual evolutionary biologist?
It is abundantly obvious that you have never done so, so just shut the fuck up. Angry

I have read on this subject. You make it sound like most, rather than a tiny few, of the problems raised have been solved by science to date. That is disingenuous of you!

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30-11-2015, 02:32 PM
RE: Logic
(30-11-2015 12:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-11-2015 05:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  For the love of truth, just fucking stop. Facepalm Have you no shame? Consider

Your ignorance is appalling. When are you going to read an actual book on evolution by an actual evolutionary biologist?
It is abundantly obvious that you have never done so, so just shut the fuck up. Angry

I have read on this subject. You make it sound like most, rather than a tiny few, of the problems raised have been solved by science to date.

There aren't any "problems" as you seem to mean. The ToE is rock solid since it is the inevitable result of imperfect replication and differential survival.

If you mean there are as yet unsolved puzzles, that is true of every human endeavor.

Quote:That is disingenuous of you!

I didn't say that and it is beyond disingenuous of you to say that, it is patently dishonest for you to say that. Fuck off, you lying cunt.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-12-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: Logic
(30-11-2015 02:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-11-2015 12:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have read on this subject. You make it sound like most, rather than a tiny few, of the problems raised have been solved by science to date.

There aren't any "problems" as you seem to mean. The ToE is rock solid since it is the inevitable result of imperfect replication and differential survival.

If you mean there are as yet unsolved puzzles, that is true of every human endeavor.

Quote:That is disingenuous of you!

I didn't say that and it is beyond disingenuous of you to say that, it is patently dishonest for you to say that. Fuck off, you lying cunt.

Chas, I'm not anti-study or reading, I'm not anti-intellectual, or anti-logical. I find certain issues with current evolutionary theory inexplicable. Why are you so closed-minded? Do you not see the huge odds stacked against multiple organ systems "coming on line" as well as lack of predators, availability of mates and of prey, and a host of other factors to move life from sea to land or vice versa? When someone raises the mere specter of doubt, why is it necessary for you to demonize the opposing voice? Why are you incapable of either explaining your position without screaming "Read a book!" or of stating your philosophical objections in a mature manner?

Do you really not understand (via spiritual blindness?) that when I look around for a good discussion like a Diogenes with a lamp, I can never find even one atheist to calmly talk about the issues without bleating hatred against me, God, everyone who disagrees with them? Do you not understand how much it sets me against deconversion--ever--when atheists consistently behave like churls?

You claim moral high ground--or at least that atheists can be as moral as Christians--despite rejecting at least seven of the ten commandments alone--yet you really don't care about anyone, not in a meaningful way. If you want me to abandon my delusions and become an atheist, are you that soulless (pun not intended) that you cannot simply talk to me online without behaving like a demagogue? In other words, what is your problem? The 20th times you curse and harangue me isn't enough? You have to whip me a 21st time with your immature anger? You don't know either how to have an adult conversation or where the ignore button is in your forum interface?

Really?

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02-12-2015, 05:22 PM (This post was last modified: 02-12-2015 05:47 PM by Chas.)
RE: Logic
(02-12-2015 02:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(30-11-2015 02:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  There aren't any "problems" as you seem to mean. The ToE is rock solid since it is the inevitable result of imperfect replication and differential survival.

If you mean there are as yet unsolved puzzles, that is true of every human endeavor.


I didn't say that and it is beyond disingenuous of you to say that, it is patently dishonest for you to say that. Fuck off, you lying cunt.

Chas, I'm not anti-study or reading, I'm not anti-intellectual, or anti-logical. I find certain issues with current evolutionary theory inexplicable.

Read a book.

Quote:Why are you so closed-minded?

That is hilarious coming from you. Facepalm

I am open to evidence; you are a delusional, bigoted, judgmental, ignorant asshole.

Quote:Do you not see the huge odds stacked against multiple organ systems "coming on line" as well as lack of predators, availability of mates and of prey, and a host of other factors to move life from sea to land or vice versa? When someone raises the mere specter of doubt, why is it necessary for you to demonize the opposing voice?

Pointing out your ignorance is not demonizing you.

Quote:Why are you incapable of either explaining your position without screaming "Read a book!" or of stating your philosophical objections in a mature manner?

I am not going to teach you a book-length subject on a forum. Really, read a book.

Quote:Do you really not understand (via spiritual blindness?) that when I look around for a good discussion like a Diogenes with a lamp, I can never find even one atheist to calmly talk about the issues without bleating hatred against me, God, everyone who disagrees with them? Do you not understand how much it sets me against deconversion--ever--when atheists consistently behave like churls?

You refuse to actually learn anything about biology. You are willfully ignorant and are now obviously being dishonest.

Quote:You claim moral high ground--

No, I haven't.

Quote:or at least that atheists can be as moral as Christians--despite rejecting at least seven of the ten commandments alone--

I certainly reject those as god-given.

Quote:yet you really don't care about anyone, not in a meaningful way. e]

Go fuck yourself, you pompous ass. Seriously, statements like that are guaranteed to make you completely disliked.

Quote:If you want me to abandon my delusions and become an atheist, are you that soulless (pun not intended) that you cannot simply talk to me online without behaving like a demagogue? In other words, what is your problem?

My problem is your willful ignorance, your pompous, condescending manner, your dishonesty, and your passive-aggressive posts.

Quote:The 20th times you curse and harangue me isn't enough? You have to whip me a 21st time with your immature anger? You don't know either how to have an adult conversation or where the ignore button is in your forum interface?

It is impossible to have an adult conversation with someone like you.

Quote:Really?

You are blinded by your religious delusions. Your obvious ignorance of how evolution operates can actually be addressed by you reading real science books.
You seem, however, either to lazy to do so, or too stupid to understand them because there are answers to your ignorant and misguided question contained therein.

Fuck off.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-12-2015, 09:24 AM
RE: Logic
(02-12-2015 05:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-12-2015 02:35 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Chas, I'm not anti-study or reading, I'm not anti-intellectual, or anti-logical. I find certain issues with current evolutionary theory inexplicable.

Read a book.

Quote:Why are you so closed-minded?

That is hilarious coming from you. Facepalm

I am open to evidence; you are a delusional, bigoted, judgmental, ignorant asshole.

Quote:Do you not see the huge odds stacked against multiple organ systems "coming on line" as well as lack of predators, availability of mates and of prey, and a host of other factors to move life from sea to land or vice versa? When someone raises the mere specter of doubt, why is it necessary for you to demonize the opposing voice?

Pointing out your ignorance is not demonizing you.

Quote:Why are you incapable of either explaining your position without screaming "Read a book!" or of stating your philosophical objections in a mature manner?

I am not going to teach you a book-length subject on a forum. Really, read a book.

Quote:Do you really not understand (via spiritual blindness?) that when I look around for a good discussion like a Diogenes with a lamp, I can never find even one atheist to calmly talk about the issues without bleating hatred against me, God, everyone who disagrees with them? Do you not understand how much it sets me against deconversion--ever--when atheists consistently behave like churls?

You refuse to actually learn anything about biology. You are willfully ignorant and are now obviously being dishonest.

Quote:You claim moral high ground--

No, I haven't.

Quote:or at least that atheists can be as moral as Christians--despite rejecting at least seven of the ten commandments alone--

I certainly reject those as god-given.

Quote:yet you really don't care about anyone, not in a meaningful way. e]

Go fuck yourself, you pompous ass. Seriously, statements like that are guaranteed to make you completely disliked.

Quote:If you want me to abandon my delusions and become an atheist, are you that soulless (pun not intended) that you cannot simply talk to me online without behaving like a demagogue? In other words, what is your problem?

My problem is your willful ignorance, your pompous, condescending manner, your dishonesty, and your passive-aggressive posts.

Quote:The 20th times you curse and harangue me isn't enough? You have to whip me a 21st time with your immature anger? You don't know either how to have an adult conversation or where the ignore button is in your forum interface?

It is impossible to have an adult conversation with someone like you.

Quote:Really?

You are blinded by your religious delusions. Your obvious ignorance of how evolution operates can actually be addressed by you reading real science books.
You seem, however, either to lazy to do so, or too stupid to understand them because there are answers to your ignorant and misguided question contained therein.

Fuck off.

So... you will continue to curse and harangue me after I make several reasoned, legitimate appeals to you to behave maturely, think through the issues carefully and be gentlemanly. I guess you really are a "true atheist". Good luck to you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-12-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: Logic
At work.

*Raises hand*

Sorry for possibly stepping in..... but to me it seems that Chas finds some of your comments possibly at a Ray Comfort level of ignorance.

I must admit, your post a couple of entries back, seems quite ridiculous.

Typing/commenting on phone, so not easy to add a quote to show up the example.
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03-12-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Logic
(03-12-2015 09:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-12-2015 05:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  Read a book.


That is hilarious coming from you. Facepalm

I am open to evidence; you are a delusional, bigoted, judgmental, ignorant asshole.


Pointing out your ignorance is not demonizing you.


I am not going to teach you a book-length subject on a forum. Really, read a book.


You refuse to actually learn anything about biology. You are willfully ignorant and are now obviously being dishonest.


No, I haven't.


I certainly reject those as god-given.


Go fuck yourself, you pompous ass. Seriously, statements like that are guaranteed to make you completely disliked.


My problem is your willful ignorance, your pompous, condescending manner, your dishonesty, and your passive-aggressive posts.


It is impossible to have an adult conversation with someone like you.


You are blinded by your religious delusions. Your obvious ignorance of how evolution operates can actually be addressed by you reading real science books.
You seem, however, either to lazy to do so, or too stupid to understand them because there are answers to your ignorant and misguided question contained therein.

Fuck off.

So... you will continue to curse and harangue me after I make several reasoned, legitimate appeals to you to behave maturely, think through the issues carefully and be gentlemanly. I guess you really are a "true atheist". Good luck to you.

When you first got here, I was polite to you. After you kept repeatedly posting ignorant and delusional crap, refusing to fact-check or back up your crap with credible sources, and exhibiting the truly petulant, ugly, and vicious side of your person, I have given up even attempting to be polite to you.
Your participation here is annoying and if you don't like to be called out for your crap then just go away. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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