Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
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30-08-2012, 06:26 AM
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
(29-08-2012 09:21 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  WTF are you doing? You're giving atheism a bad name. You can't hang out no morez. Big Grin

I thought you were gonna link up some stuff about gravity - G - being proven constant... man, I don't even know if you can do that... but you come with 9.8m/s^2 which only concerns the current mass of the earth, a thing that wasn't around fourteen billion years ago... Dodgy

So you're like one of them fucks (Chas, where are you?) who think "faith" is a bad word and should not be used in any context? Or what?

'Cause it seems to me what you did wrong here is let your opponent dictate the field of battle, and like a green lieutenant, come running into the major's tent, wanting me to waste my units extracting your clumsy ass...

Xerus,
Our resident prophet, hoc, here is precisely correct. You let them lead you down a rabbit hole, and let them set the terms of the battle. As we have pointed out there are lots of ways to approach this, but, you let him establish the ground on which you would debate. Don' do that. Tongue
There are perfectly good reasons to NOT equate these two situations/things.
You really don't even have to use the whole gravity thing. It's a distraction.
1. Every single time the hammer was observed to be dropped, it fell...
2. Gods have never been observed

You let him use a word which is not correct. He says "belief" in his god is equivalent to your perfectly reasonable EXPECTATION that the hammer will drop.
They are NOT the same. You have an expectation that the hammer will fall. There is a 100% PROBABILITY that will happen. Expectation, at a "certainty" level, is not the same position, intellectually, as positing an invisible being, for which there is no evidence, and for which the PROBABILITY of being seen is 0, (zero).
It's a frequently used "debating trick, of these people, and besides being incorrect logically, also shows BAD FAITH. I throw THAT at them. Ask them "so, is this about word games, and debating tricks, (such as William L Craig is famous for), OR, is this about an honest search for truth. Is it about 'trickery', or sincerity" ? Throw THAT in his face.

You can also use an epistemological approach, and ask them, "well, first, if you are going to use what you assume to be "logical", you must establish, first, that human logic is a productive way to arrive at the truth, AND at the SAME time, establish the the universe is intuitively correct, (that what appears to human brains, .. ie logical to us), IS actually true, and reliable. There are good reasons to think that is not true. (Relativity, Heisenberg, Dirac). If the universe is NOT intuitively correct, then anything said about it, based only on intuition, and logic, is not reliable. That means the ONLY thing remaining, which IS reliable, is that for which there is evidence.
The unspoken assumption in any debate which uses logic, is that the universe is intuitively correct. We can prove it is not.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-08-2012, 06:33 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2012 06:37 AM by Bishadi.)
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
(30-08-2012 06:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That means the ONLY thing remaining, which IS reliable, is that for which there is evidence.

for example: if life evolved from a single celled critter, over the gazillions of years, and surviveds all them extinctions, i could care less if a moron says the universe is expanding to fix his calculations but that LIFE, is kicking the shit out of entropy and has for almost ever!

that be the EVIDENCE!

while the monkeys have a belief that the universe is expanding, just to make their calculations work!
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30-08-2012, 06:42 AM
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
(30-08-2012 06:33 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 06:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That means the ONLY thing remaining, which IS reliable, is that for which there is evidence.

for example: if life evolved from a single celled critter, over the gazillions of years, and surviveds all them extinctions, i could care less if a moron says the universe is expanding to fix his calculations but that LIFE, is kicking the shit out of entropy and has for almost ever!

that be the EVIDENCE!

while the monkeys have a belief that the universe is expanding, just to make their calculations work!

Well the universe is expanding, calculations or no. There is evidence for that. However your point about life/entropy is right on.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-08-2012, 07:03 AM
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
(30-08-2012 06:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 06:33 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  for example: if life evolved from a single celled critter, over the gazillions of years, and surviveds all them extinctions, i could care less if a moron says the universe is expanding to fix his calculations but that LIFE, is kicking the shit out of entropy and has for almost ever!

that be the EVIDENCE!

while the monkeys have a belief that the universe is expanding, just to make their calculations work!

Well the universe is expanding, calculations or no.
what EVIDENCE?

moving bodies in space, dont mean it is expanding.

the background radiation aint evidence. (Have you ever read the paper?)

that background noise, could be the earths magnetosphere. i didnt run the calculations to see which wavelength(s) that mass could capture but the claim that it is from the beginning explosion of the BB is like saying 'god' did it.

So when you can provide evidence of the edge of th universe is expanding, then you can stand up within the god believing crowd and say, "i have evidence"

otherwise, the rant on the universe is expanding, is about as stupid as claiming, it blew up onces, came back together because of gravity and is now expanding again to eventually equilibrate.




There is evidence for that. However your point about life/entropy is right on.
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30-08-2012, 07:13 AM
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
Fucking Bishadi... you're like a copper penny bouncing around the inside of an electrified sphere... here ya go - http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news...-is-accele - it's redshift.

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30-08-2012, 07:15 AM
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
(30-08-2012 07:13 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking Bishadi... you're like a copper penny bouncing around the inside of an electrified sphere... here ya go - http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news...-is-accele - it's redshift.

i knew that was coming.

a prism causes the same.

ie.... mass between us and what is being viewed is what is causing the observed phenomena.

kind of like the eddington experiment, the corona was 'bending' the light, just like a mirage does on a hot highway.
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30-08-2012, 07:51 AM
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
Bishadi, you keep making very odd "goofs" in using English. Is English your primary language ? (No offense).

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30-08-2012, 07:57 AM
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
(30-08-2012 07:15 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 07:13 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking Bishadi... you're like a copper penny bouncing around the inside of an electrified sphere... here ya go - http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news...-is-accele - it's redshift.

i knew that was coming.

a prism causes the same.

ie.... mass between us and what is being viewed is what is causing the observed phenomena.

kind of like the eddington experiment, the corona was 'bending' the light, just like a mirage does on a hot highway.

Sorry. Redshift is not "bending".

You are simply wrong. They are two entirely different things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-08-2012, 08:03 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2012 08:07 AM by Bishadi.)
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
(30-08-2012 07:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 07:15 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  i knew that was coming.

a prism causes the same.

ie.... mass between us and what is being viewed is what is causing the observed phenomena.

kind of like the eddington experiment, the corona was 'bending' the light, just like a mirage does on a hot highway.

Sorry. Redshift is not "bending".

You are simply wrong. They are two entirely different things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift

wow..... dense are ye?

for BOTH experiments, i simply share that the line of site has material in between the point of release and observation.

it aint the 'speed' redshift, nor gravity bending space.

ie.... no evidence of either of the 2 whacko accepted'o stuff'o. but i sure gave you a concept of what could be causing it, that can be evidenced.
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30-08-2012, 08:37 AM
RE: Logical proofs: Empirical evidence for constant gravity in the past and future
(30-08-2012 07:15 AM)Bishadi Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 07:13 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Fucking Bishadi... you're like a copper penny bouncing around the inside of an electrified sphere... here ya go - http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news...-is-accele - it's redshift.

i knew that was coming.

a prism causes the same.

No, it doesn't.

Quote:ie.... mass between us and what is being viewed is what is causing the observed phenomena.

kind of like the eddington experiment, the corona was 'bending' the light, just like a mirage does on a hot highway.

Not the same.

Refraction and gravitational bending of light are not the same things.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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