Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
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21-04-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
Why bother?

#sigh
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22-04-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(21-04-2015 02:43 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I hear what you are saying but that isn't how I was raised/taught. I was taught that my birthright was to be an independent and original thinker. Later, when I converted from skeptic to theist and then Christian, I was told/taught to remain someone who indulges careful, critical thought.

No you didn't use critical thought otherwise you'd still be an atheist.

There is no Allah theory of thermodynamics, no Hindu theory of gravity, no Buddhist theory of evolution, no Vishnu theory of entropy.

"Wait and see" does not mean clinging to bad claims. You are either lying about being a former atheist, or you didn't understand how slick apologists could suck you in. That bible was written by bronze age ignorant humans who had no clue of scientific reality. But fear not, the OT nor the Koran or the Vedas or the Baga Gavitas or science textbooks either.

Humans make up gods, that's it. Sorry that isn't sexy enough for you, but that is the truth.

If you think Christianity is the only religion to try that BS tactic, you'd be wrong. I have seen Jews, Muslims, Hindus and even once a Rastafarian try to co opt science. That is what all religions pull when they cant debunk it.

What all religions pull when they can't debunk what? To what do you refer?

Repeating, my father and father-in-law were educators. I teach paid and unpaid classes across several subjects, not just Bible stuff. I am constantly critiqued by my peers when I deliver sermons also. And I'm married, and God put my wife in my path to provide constructive criticism. Smile

Jesus added to the command to love God to love God with all your mind. I'm not afraid to consider any philosophy or religion or logic problem or behavior. One model is Samson who composed thousands of wise proverbs and worked in everything from animal husbandry to architecture to agronomy with equal aplomb.

Jesus also said when we trust Him are minds are opened and we can see clearly. I often think about many of the statements TTA'ers make here, sharing them with friends or families weeks or even months later. I'm a critical thinker.

Unfortunately, I'm also more open IMO than TTA'ers on many subjects. For example, you just basically wrote that 80% - 90% of people in this world (theists) are some kind of dullards who are not holding the superior mental faculties you hold. Are you sure that is your stance?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-04-2015, 11:52 AM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(22-04-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Unfortunately, I'm also more open IMO than TTA'ers on many subjects. For example, you just basically wrote that 80% - 90% of people in this world (theists) are some kind of dullards who are not holding the superior mental faculties you hold. Are you sure that is your stance?

Sure in a way. If being a dullard is being gullible and intellectually dishonest, then yes. And if you deny scientific facts like evolution, and all other facts that debunk biblical myths and claims, then yes a definite and huge dullard!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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22-04-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(22-04-2015 11:52 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(22-04-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Unfortunately, I'm also more open IMO than TTA'ers on many subjects. For example, you just basically wrote that 80% - 90% of people in this world (theists) are some kind of dullards who are not holding the superior mental faculties you hold. Are you sure that is your stance?

Sure in a way. If being a dullard is being gullible and intellectually dishonest, then yes. And if you deny scientific facts like evolution, and all other facts that debunk biblical myths and claims, then yes a definite and huge dullard!

I've never denied evolution. I believe in it. Some facts do debunk some biblical myths and claims. Others, I believe have caused needless confusion.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-04-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(22-04-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus added to the command to love God to love God with all your mind. I'm not afraid to consider any philosophy or religion or logic problem or behavior. One model is Samson who composed thousands of wise proverbs and worked in everything from animal husbandry to architecture to agronomy with equal aplomb.

Jesus also said when we trust Him are minds are opened and we can see clearly. I often think about many of the statements TTA'ers make here, sharing them with friends or families weeks or even months later. I'm a critical thinker.

Unfortunately, I'm also more open IMO than TTA'ers on many subjects. For example, you just basically wrote that 80% - 90% of people in this world (theists) are some kind of dullards who are not holding the superior mental faculties you hold. Are you sure that is your stance?

You sure "jesus" said that? How do you know? Who write that down? you sure?...

by the way, statistically, the average atheist is more intelligent, more informed, and more knowledgeable than the average theist, fact...allow me to expound...

According to the leading science journal Nature a recent survey of members of the National Academy of Sciences showed that 72% are outright atheists, 21% are agnostic and only 7% admit to belief in a personal god. Atheists know all about science.

Also. atheists know more about religion than most theists.

U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
“Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons are among the highest-scoring groups on a new survey of religious knowledge, outperforming evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics on questions about the core teachings, history and leading figures of major world religions by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life. Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons perform better than other groups on the survey even after controlling for differing levels of education. Jews and atheists/agnostics stand out for their knowledge of other world religions, including Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism. Atheists/agnostics and Jews also do particularly well on questions about the role of religion in public life, including a question about what the U.S. Constitution says about religion.”

Intelligence and Religion
#1 - National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of white American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious beliefs. The results were published in the scientific journal Intelligence, demonstrated that Atheists scored an average of 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions.

#2 - Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. Using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 IQ points higher than non atheists. Lynn said, "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population.

#3- Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

#4 - A study published in Social Psychology Quarterly in March 2010 also stated that "atheism correlates with higher intelligence".

#5 - The more religious you are, the less likely you are to be intelligent, a new scientific study has found. According to researchers, Christians - particularly fundamentalists who believe the Bible is God's word - have a lower IQ than those who are less religious. A possible reason behind the finding was a tendency for more intelligent people to challenge religious claims, said one of the researchers, New Zealand psychologist Professor Tim Bates. "If you believe in religion, you haven't really questioned things," he said. "Brighter people were less likely to feel that religion plays a dominant role in their life."

any questions?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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23-04-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(22-04-2015 03:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(22-04-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus added to the command to love God to love God with all your mind. I'm not afraid to consider any philosophy or religion or logic problem or behavior. One model is Samson who composed thousands of wise proverbs and worked in everything from animal husbandry to architecture to agronomy with equal aplomb.

Jesus also said when we trust Him are minds are opened and we can see clearly. I often think about many of the statements TTA'ers make here, sharing them with friends or families weeks or even months later. I'm a critical thinker.

Unfortunately, I'm also more open IMO than TTA'ers on many subjects. For example, you just basically wrote that 80% - 90% of people in this world (theists) are some kind of dullards who are not holding the superior mental faculties you hold. Are you sure that is your stance?

You sure "jesus" said that? How do you know? Who write that down? you sure?...

by the way, statistically, the average atheist is more intelligent, more informed, and more knowledgeable than the average theist, fact...allow me to expound...

According to the leading science journal Nature a recent survey of members of the National Academy of Sciences showed that 72% are outright atheists, 21% are agnostic and only 7% admit to belief in a personal god. Atheists know all about science.

Also. atheists know more about religion than most theists.

U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey
“Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons are among the highest-scoring groups on a new survey of religious knowledge, outperforming evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants and Catholics on questions about the core teachings, history and leading figures of major world religions by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life. Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons perform better than other groups on the survey even after controlling for differing levels of education. Jews and atheists/agnostics stand out for their knowledge of other world religions, including Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism. Atheists/agnostics and Jews also do particularly well on questions about the role of religion in public life, including a question about what the U.S. Constitution says about religion.”

Intelligence and Religion
#1 - National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of white American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious beliefs. The results were published in the scientific journal Intelligence, demonstrated that Atheists scored an average of 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions.

#2 - Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. Using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 IQ points higher than non atheists. Lynn said, "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population.

#3- Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

#4 - A study published in Social Psychology Quarterly in March 2010 also stated that "atheism correlates with higher intelligence".

#5 - The more religious you are, the less likely you are to be intelligent, a new scientific study has found. According to researchers, Christians - particularly fundamentalists who believe the Bible is God's word - have a lower IQ than those who are less religious. A possible reason behind the finding was a tendency for more intelligent people to challenge religious claims, said one of the researchers, New Zealand psychologist Professor Tim Bates. "If you believe in religion, you haven't really questioned things," he said. "Brighter people were less likely to feel that religion plays a dominant role in their life."

any questions?

Yes, I have a question. Have you considered this model:

High intelligence = high pride = less likely to humble oneself as a theist/Christian

?

Now personally, I'm not anti-academic or anti-intellectual. But are you saying that if you found something different, than more/more high intellects were theists, that you would convert?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-04-2015, 10:52 AM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(23-04-2015 10:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  High intelligence = high pride

Prove it! Another one of your stupid assumptions you make in order to keep yourself (and your silly beliefs) relevant. I find it friggin' hilarious how ignorant christians are so proud of their belief system and would shout about jesus from every rooftop if they could, yet we are inflicted with that nasty old "pride" thing - damn hypocritical idiot!

Or could it be (to play at your own game):
high intelligence = value knowledge
low intelligence = willful gullibility and ignorance

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-04-2015, 04:27 AM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(23-04-2015 10:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, I have a question. Have you considered this model:
High intelligence = high pride = less likely to humble oneself as a theist/Christian

I agree high intelligence can correlate to high pride and difficulty acknowledging false beliefs. Often the most intelligent theists will argue themselves into every increasing complicated knots rather than acknowledging the world actually is simple after all Wink

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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24-04-2015, 08:25 AM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(24-04-2015 04:27 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(23-04-2015 10:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, I have a question. Have you considered this model:
High intelligence = high pride = less likely to humble oneself as a theist/Christian

I agree high intelligence can correlate to high pride and difficulty acknowledging false beliefs. Often the most intelligent theists will argue themselves into every increasing complicated knots rather than acknowledging the world actually is simple after all Wink

I like your post! Fun and insightful. You're likely right. In doctrine, I try to keep things simple. Unfortunately, in deciphering the Word, as long as TTA members keep saying things like "Paul didn't write letters with his signature!" without any historical or textual evidence, and as long as people keep "interpreting" the Bible without bothering to look at textual context, historical context or the original languages... sigh.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-04-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Long term advice when debating theists. OP/ED
(23-04-2015 10:52 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(23-04-2015 10:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  High intelligence = high pride

Prove it! Another one of your stupid assumptions you make in order to keep yourself (and your silly beliefs) relevant. I find it friggin' hilarious how ignorant christians are so proud of their belief system and would shout about jesus from every rooftop if they could, yet we are inflicted with that nasty old "pride" thing - damn hypocritical idiot!

Or could it be (to play at your own game):
high intelligence = value knowledge
low intelligence = willful gullibility and ignorance

Just to add to what you wrote = over-value knowledge. Knowledge is super important. Balancing knowledge in love is the challenge.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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