Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
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21-05-2016, 06:16 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:03 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 04:57 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  So , if science told you to assume the higs boson particle until its proved , would your trust allow you that leap of trust.

That question betrays an utter lack of understanding of what "science" is. The core of the scientific method is to not assume anything and to not believe anything until there is good evidence for it.

The Higgs particle was hypothesized based on the evidence and then, rather than assume it existed, they looked for ways to discredit that hypothesis. I trust the scientific method because it doesn't ask me to make a "leap of trust" so please stop equivocating faith and trust. Trust has to be earned. Faith is gullibility.
How does science define "Good evidence" and "assumption" ?

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21-05-2016, 06:23 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:16 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 06:03 AM)unfogged Wrote:  That question betrays an utter lack of understanding of what "science" is. The core of the scientific method is to not assume anything and to not believe anything until there is good evidence for it.

The Higgs particle was hypothesized based on the evidence and then, rather than assume it existed, they looked for ways to discredit that hypothesis. I trust the scientific method because it doesn't ask me to make a "leap of trust" so please stop equivocating faith and trust. Trust has to be earned. Faith is gullibility.
How does science define "Good evidence" and "assumption" ?
Don't get me wrong im not attacking your beliefs , Im just trying to map the walls of your beliefs.

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21-05-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:16 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 06:03 AM)unfogged Wrote:  That question betrays an utter lack of understanding of what "science" is. The core of the scientific method is to not assume anything and to not believe anything until there is good evidence for it.

The Higgs particle was hypothesized based on the evidence and then, rather than assume it existed, they looked for ways to discredit that hypothesis. I trust the scientific method because it doesn't ask me to make a "leap of trust" so please stop equivocating faith and trust. Trust has to be earned. Faith is gullibility.
How does science define "Good evidence" and "assumption" ?

"Science" is a method, not a thing. To be good, evidence must be demonstrable and available for examination by anybody. It needs to be usable to discriminate between competing hypotheses to help narrow the options.

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21-05-2016, 06:33 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:29 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 06:16 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  How does science define "Good evidence" and "assumption" ?

"Science" is a method, not a thing. To be good, evidence must be demonstrable and available for examination by anybody. It needs to be usable to discriminate between competing hypotheses to help narrow the options.

So this Organized body of "methods" i.e science ,allows you to verify within boundaries of good evidence and assumption based on good evidence only?

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21-05-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:23 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 06:16 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  How does science define "Good evidence" and "assumption" ?
Don't get me wrong im not attacking your beliefs , Im just trying to map the walls of your beliefs.

Patronizing, aren't you? I am willing to believe anything that is supported by evidence. The level of evidence required for any given claim depends on how extraordinary the claim is.

Taking your 'experiment' for example, I'm quite open to the idea that following your instructions can lead people to "see" auras around objects. The actions you outline are similar to known techniques that lead to altered mental states and since you primed people to see auras that is not an unlikely outcome. I am not ready to believe that it is evidence of any external cause for the effect because nothing about it rules out purely internal causes. The evidence that people can think they see auras doesn't lead directly to any conclusion.

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21-05-2016, 06:40 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:33 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 06:29 AM)unfogged Wrote:  "Science" is a method, not a thing. To be good, evidence must be demonstrable and available for examination by anybody. It needs to be usable to discriminate between competing hypotheses to help narrow the options.

So this Organized body of "methods" i.e science ,allows you to verify within boundaries of good evidence and assumption based on good evidence only?

What else would I base my beliefs on except good evidence? bad evidence? no evidence? That way madness lies.

By the way, assumptions are often implicit but, when recognized, need to be examined to see if they are valid. They certainly aren't a reasonable basis for forming a belief.

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21-05-2016, 06:53 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:36 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 06:23 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  Don't get me wrong im not attacking your beliefs , Im just trying to map the walls of your beliefs.

Patronizing, aren't you? I am willing to believe anything that is supported by evidence. The level of evidence required for any given claim depends on how extraordinary the claim is.

Taking your 'experiment' for example, I'm quite open to the idea that following your instructions can lead people to "see" auras around objects. The actions you outline are similar to known techniques that lead to altered mental states and since you primed people to see auras that is not an unlikely outcome. I am not ready to believe that it is evidence of any external cause for the effect because nothing about it rules out purely internal causes. The evidence that people can think they see auras doesn't lead directly to any conclusion.

no bro , i never said aura.. i was forced into defining it so i said its "Like an aura"
And i agree it sounds patronizing , but maybe im showing you that sometimes we close ourselves a lot more than we realize , and its mostly a natural reaction
to something we absolutely disagree with. And that shield itself becomes the new cage.

Let me ask you one question that troubles me personally ..(im no fool i agree with science) ..i wanna know if all scientists are closed to the unseen ..and those who attempt at the unseen are psuedo's and discarded at surface level , how is it that anyone would pursue that aspect if it is of no concern. it is easy to discard auras by saying its an altered mental state , but what if entering a realm that lies outside 4 dimensions requires and altered state?

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21-05-2016, 07:03 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:40 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 06:33 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  So this Organized body of "methods" i.e science ,allows you to verify within boundaries of good evidence and assumption based on good evidence only?

What else would I base my beliefs on except good evidence? bad evidence? no evidence? That way madness lies.

By the way, assumptions are often implicit but, when recognized, need to be examined to see if they are valid. They certainly aren't a reasonable basis for forming a belief.

The actual trigger words in my statement were "Organized body" "Allows you" And "boundaries" . I hid them on purpose. its a shame i have to re trigger them directly.

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All i am is what i think,
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21-05-2016, 07:11 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 06:53 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  Let me ask you one question that troubles me personally ..(im no fool i agree with science) ..i wanna know if all scientists are closed to the unseen ..and those who attempt at the unseen are psuedo's and discarded at surface level , how is it that anyone would pursue that aspect if it is of no concern. it is easy to discard auras by saying its an altered mental state , but what if entering a realm that lies outside 4 dimensions requires and altered state?

If scientists were "closed to the unseen" then radio communication would not exist. Microwaves would not exist. RADAR would not exist.

The main problem with "the unseen" that results in not a single demonstrable study showing its existence is that it's poorly defined. Ghosts. Telepathy. All that stuff. There tend to be eye-witness reports and so forth, but as soon as you set up for example a proper experiment to try and confirm if a claimed telepath can actually do what they claim, it all turns out to be either cases of genuine but mistaken belief or a confidence trick.

Why are science journals not filled with accounts of the miraculous properties of faith healing? You think doctors *want* to fiddle around with terrible things like radiation and chemotherapy, if all you need to do is to believe really hard and say some magic words? It's not because they don't want miracle cures, it's because the claimed cures *do not work*.

Scientists as well, do not have unlimited time. Of course they're not going to listen to idiots all day long - they have genuine work to do. So unless you can demonstrate the existence of the unseen yourself, whining that some scientist hasn't investigated it and doesn't believe it gets you nothing. What precisely do they lose by refusing to be interested in such claims? If the claim *is* true then eventually it will be demonstrated. Until then it's just a claim.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-05-2016, 07:22 AM
RE: Looking for 1 volunteer for an experiment
(21-05-2016 07:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 06:53 AM)Silentroar Wrote:  Let me ask you one question that troubles me personally ..(im no fool i agree with science) ..i wanna know if all scientists are closed to the unseen ..and those who attempt at the unseen are psuedo's and discarded at surface level , how is it that anyone would pursue that aspect if it is of no concern. it is easy to discard auras by saying its an altered mental state , but what if entering a realm that lies outside 4 dimensions requires and altered state?

If scientists were "closed to the unseen" then radio communication would not exist. Microwaves would not exist. RADAR would not exist.

The main problem with "the unseen" that results in not a single demonstrable study showing its existence is that it's poorly defined. Ghosts. Telepathy. All that stuff. There tend to be eye-witness reports and so forth, but as soon as you set up for example a proper experiment to try and confirm if a claimed telepath can actually do what they claim, it all turns out to be either cases of genuine but mistaken belief or a confidence trick.

Why are science journals not filled with accounts of the miraculous properties of faith healing? You think doctors *want* to fiddle around with terrible things like radiation and chemotherapy, if all you need to do is to believe really hard and say some magic words? It's not because they don't want miracle cures, it's because the claimed cures *do not work*.

Scientists as well, do not have unlimited time. Of course they're not going to listen to idiots all day long - they have genuine work to do. So unless you can demonstrate the existence of the unseen yourself, whining that some scientist hasn't investigated it and doesn't believe it gets you nothing. What precisely do they lose by refusing to be interested in such claims? If the claim *is* true then eventually it will be demonstrated. Until then it's just a claim.

This is all valid..what you say makes total sense , and i was afraid of this reply because honestly i do not have a good counter for how damaging woo woo has been. But the next thing im going to say now..you have to understand this with utmost positivity ..There is some awesome goodness untapped ..it is simply awesome..and that is what compels me to cajole you. I wish i could explain ..but i am willing to accept my defeat because the likely hood of bringing that awesome goodness is rare. And the likely hood of things going haywire is much higher so its better left untapped.

All i know is what was told,
All i think is what i know,
All i am is what i think,
All i know NOT is who I Am.
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