Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
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23-12-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(23-12-2015 03:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 03:28 PM)frankksj Wrote:  When did the US carpet bomb Russia and destroy all their infrastructure? So why would you expect Russian terrorists to then try attacking the US? I don't get your point.

The fact is that whatever country the US bombs into the stone ages, regardless of religion, the survivors will pursue revenge attacks (ie become "terrorists"). The vast majority are Islamic because the vast majority of countries the US bombed into oblivion are Islamic.

If the US stuck it's nose in, say, Italy's business and then bombed the country to the ground for not doing what the US wanted, then there would be Italian "terrorists" seeking revenge. I don't even understand your point because what I said, which is so simple and obvious, is that whatever countries the US bombs, the survivors will seek revenge. So, unable to form a coherent argument, you try to counter this point by pointing to Russia, a country the US never bombed???

The U.S. bombed the crap out of Japan and Germany. Consider

The difference is the insensity. The U.S. bombed japan with with two atomic bombs which fucked them up for years afterwards, add in a bit of article 9 and helping rebuild and you have why the reason japan never attacked again.

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23-12-2015, 03:50 PM
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(23-12-2015 02:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 12:14 PM)frankksj Wrote:  (the first physicist to calculate the speed of light was from Tehran university,

No, it was not. Ever heard of Albert Michelson? Consider

From Wikipedia Michelson was the first to ESTIMATE the speed of light, and "Javan developed the first absolutely accurate measurement of the speed of light" source


Quote:Misleading as is usual for you. Facepalm

It's not misleading. I didn't say he ONLY went to Tehran University or that he didn't collaborate with others on the laser. And my point wasn't to describe his work in detail--this is a political forum after all. Rather my point was that Iran wasn't always the backwards place of religious fanatics it is today--it got that way because the US overthrew a peaceful, modern democracy and sent them back to the stone ages. Apparently my point is so valid and irrefutable that rather than even try to dispute it head-on, you just nitpick irrelevant side trivia that has nothing to do with that I'm making. Instead of countering my argument by saying Javin was the "co-inventor" and not the "inventor", try addressing the actual point: the US created the monsters in the middle east which it is now so terrified of.

This is why this forum gets so tedious. If you make a point that someone doesn't like but is so airtight that it can't be disputed, then your political opponents resort to debating trivia that has nothing to do with the core issue. It's like a couple years when I explained that libertarianism means you don't force other people to do things against their will unless they agree to subject themselves to force under a social contract. This isn't controversial or up for dispute, but cjlr didn't like me pointing out in such black & white terms that the only difference between us is that he advocates using force to coerce people, so he pretended that he couldn't understand what "force" means, and the debate got sidetracked into the usual absurdity of arguing whether holding a laser gun to someone's head and threatening to kill them if they didn't do what you want was "force" because in the scientific sense "force" requires physical action, and, instead of bullets a laser gun uses photons which have no matter and thus can't be force. An intellectually genuine response would be to either (a) point to one example where we disagree on some policy that does not boil down to him wanting to use force and me not, or (b) explain why he feels the use of force is best.

Same here. If you disagree with my point, address the point, not this irrelevant trivial tangent.
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23-12-2015, 04:02 PM
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(23-12-2015 03:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  The U.S. bombed the crap out of Japan and Germany. Consider

Sure, but in both countries those countries attacked first and the US acted defensively. That's completely different than making an unprovoked attack on a peaceful country that's minding it's own business.

If I attack you and in self-defense you punch me in the face, I'd have to accept I had it coming.

If I'm peacefully walking down the street and you just attack for no reason, then, yes, I'd want some kind of retribution.

The Germans know that the US attacked them because of the horrific things they did first. But what did Iran do that justified the US overthrowing their government in 1952? The only thing that Iran's Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh did which pissed off the US so much, was that he was a liberal who wanted to sell Iran's oil for a fair market price and use the proceeds to fund education, infrastructure, etc. Like Norway does.

Are you seriously saying that justified overthrowing Iran? Are you saying that Iran wanting to use its own oil to fund education for its own people is a moral atrocity like the Nazi's gasing millions of Jews, and therefore, in both cases, they got what they had coming?

Are you seriously denying the obvious point I make, which is that if you bomb a country and kill their people and destroy their infrastructure, the survivors are likely to seek revenge? Is that such a hard concept to accept?
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23-12-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
As the founding and only member of the E.F.W.L.P.F. (earmuffs for world leader people's front). I can inform you that we are an Atheist organization politically motivated to separate religion from state by replacing the state entirely with a dictatorship, the most efficient form of government, with me as the figurative and literal leader of the world.

You are welcome to join.
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23-12-2015, 10:11 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 11:02 PM by Chas.)
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(23-12-2015 03:50 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 02:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it was not. Ever heard of Albert Michelson? Consider

From Wikipedia Michelson was the first to ESTIMATE the speed of light, and "Javan developed the first absolutely accurate measurement of the speed of light" source


Quote:Misleading as is usual for you. Facepalm

It's not misleading. I didn't say he ONLY went to Tehran University or that he didn't collaborate with others on the laser. And my point wasn't to describe his work in detail--this is a political forum after all. Rather my point was that Iran wasn't always the backwards place of religious fanatics it is today--it got that way because the US overthrew a peaceful, modern democracy and sent them back to the stone ages. Apparently my point is so valid and irrefutable that rather than even try to dispute it head-on, you just nitpick irrelevant side trivia that has nothing to do with that I'm making. Instead of countering my argument by saying Javin was the "co-inventor" and not the "inventor", try addressing the actual point: the US created the monsters in the middle east which it is now so terrified of.

This is why this forum gets so tedious. If you make a point that someone doesn't like but is so airtight that it can't be disputed, then your political opponents resort to debating trivia that has nothing to do with the core issue. It's like a couple years when I explained that libertarianism means you don't force other people to do things against their will unless they agree to subject themselves to force under a social contract. This isn't controversial or up for dispute, but cjlr didn't like me pointing out in such black & white terms that the only difference between us is that he advocates using force to coerce people, so he pretended that he couldn't understand what "force" means, and the debate got sidetracked into the usual absurdity of arguing whether holding a laser gun to someone's head and threatening to kill them if they didn't do what you want was "force" because in the scientific sense "force" requires physical action, and, instead of bullets a laser gun uses photons which have no matter and thus can't be force. An intellectually genuine response would be to either (a) point to one example where we disagree on some policy that does not boil down to him wanting to use force and me not, or (b) explain why he feels the use of force is best.

Same here. If you disagree with my point, address the point, not this irrelevant trivial tangent.

Try using actual fact for a change instead of dishonestly spinning things. Drinking Beverage

He went to Tehran University for one year of undergraduate. He got his PhD and did all his professional work in the U.S. so, yes, your statements were basically lies.

And Michelson did, in fact, measure the speed of light.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-12-2015, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 10:35 PM by Sobek.)
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(23-12-2015 04:28 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  American atheist & David Silverman's goals may be the type of group you seek. I don't know if there's a strongly motivated active group in a vain you really seek elsewhere.

Thanks, I checked them out before I posted here. I see some things I like, but their billboard section is the sort of thing that I believe is counterproductive in that it is more likely to close minds than to actually make people think.

The important factor for any advocacy group is effectiveness. Just because an argument is deemed "true" or "right" doesn't necessarily make it effective. Given the number of bright and talented individuals who are atheists it seems like there should be organizations bringing serious PR skills to bear much the same way that other groups test their messaging to see what works and what doesn't. Think Hitchens, but on an organizational scale.

The value of an organization is that there is a perceived strength in numbers. Membership in the organization becomes a way in which people can "come out of the closet" as atheists, in a manner of speaking. And organizations can furnish spokesmen and public statements to the media rather than having them turn to the default crazy angry atheist who manages to offend and close minds with every ill-tempered statement that comes out of their mouth.
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23-12-2015, 10:55 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 10:59 PM by Sobek.)
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(23-12-2015 12:14 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Have you ever been to Istanbul? I have. It's beautiful and modern and fashionable. That's what an Islamic society looks like when they have a functional economy, proper education, and haven't been bombed into the stone ages. Thus the problem of radical Islam isn't Islam itself--it's the West's foreign policy.

And yet they are having loads of problems with ISIS sympathizers in Turkey. More to the point, the profile of your typical terrorist does not match the poor marginalized unemployed young man with no opportunity. Many of them are college educated from middle-class families with plenty of career opportunities. Bin Laden was rich and apparently a fairly skilled engineer. Many of them are sort of wayward Muslims who get sucked in by charismatic leaders who convince them that they can be part of some great religious cause. The guy in San Bernardino was making $70k a year and living the American dream. We aren't really talking about the poor farmer who just wants a paycheck and will readily switch sides with a little monetary incentive. We are talking about people whose worldview makes them susceptible to apocalyptic religious fanaticism. I understand it perfectly because I was raised in an apocalyptic Christian religion. It was non-violent, but adherents of the sect have readily sacrificed their lives in countries around the globe whenever their beliefs came into conflict with local authorities. It has nothing to do with their economic status. If you were ever a true believer you would understand that people, irrespective of their economic status, can be convinced of a cause to the point of being willing to die...or KILL for it.
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24-12-2015, 12:19 AM
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(23-12-2015 02:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Joins our forum to ask about another forum that might suit their needs better Consider

Does he want to join a non militant atheist musical group? They likely play folk and and do lots of vocal harmonies.

Or maybe a shady group that hangs around playgrounds?

An atheist furries group?

frankly I've never had potus but I am sure there is a cream for it.

Good luck.

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24-12-2015, 07:13 AM
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(24-12-2015 12:19 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 02:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Joins our forum to ask about another forum that might suit their needs better Consider

Does he want to join a non militant atheist musical group? They likely play folk and and do lots of vocal harmonies.

Or maybe a shady group that hangs around playgrounds?

An atheist furries group?

frankly I've never had potus but I am sure there is a cream for it.

Good luck.

Sorry, this being the Politics section of the forum I assumed more people would be familiar with POTUS on Sirius XM satellite radio. Sirius has a station for lefties, one for righties and then POTUS (Politics of the US) which is the independent/moderate channel. It's the home of the Michael Smerconish radio show, Julie Mason's Press Pool, Steele and Ungar, No labels Radio with John Huntsman, and a bunch of other programs for political junkies who want thoughtful discussion and debate of the issues rather than partisan hacks shouting talking points. Smerconish once ran a poll on his website in which he was surprised to discover how many of his listeners were atheist or agnostic, which is the main reason I brought it up.
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24-12-2015, 07:15 AM
RE: Looking for Atheist groups that are politically moderate
(24-12-2015 07:13 AM)Sobek Wrote:  
(24-12-2015 12:19 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Does he want to join a non militant atheist musical group? They likely play folk and and do lots of vocal harmonies.

Or maybe a shady group that hangs around playgrounds?

An atheist furries group?

frankly I've never had potus but I am sure there is a cream for it.

Good luck.

Sorry, this being the Politics section of the forum I assumed more people would be familiar with POTUS on Sirius XM satellite radio. Sirius has a station for lefties, one for righties and then POTUS (Politics of the US) which is the independent/moderate channel. It's the home of the Michael Smerconish radio show, Julie Mason's Press Pool, Steele and Ungar, No labels Radio with John Huntsman, and a bunch of other programs for political junkies who want thoughtful discussion and debate of the issues rather than partisan hacks shouting talking points. Smerconish once ran a poll on his website in which he was surprised to discover how many of his listeners were atheist or agnostic, which is the main reason I brought it up.

This board is well-populated with moderate/progressives plus a smattering of libertards.

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