Loopholes
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28-04-2010, 01:56 PM
 
RE: Loopholes
(28-04-2010 01:30 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  Obviously it is hypothetical, because none of these things can exist in our universe; and that is exactly my point.

What are you talking about? Angels are in the world of Gods creation, they have free will and can choose to do good or evil. They are not immutably perfect, they were perfect until they were not perfect. Stop playing games, that was a waste of time and brain cells that I will never get back.
(28-04-2010 01:07 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Two questions. One, are you going to answer my question about what Satan was if he wasn't a rebellious angel? Two, is it possible for God to, at some point in future, not be perfect?

Satan to the best of my knowledge, of course anyone can say anything, that satan was an angel.

God cannot be imperfect. That would be a category mistake.
(27-04-2010 09:31 AM)Ceryle Wrote:  Again it really depends on what the particular brand of Christianity your arguing against is.

Most, and I say that loosely, seem to believe that the bible is 'true' though. So, I suppose that'd be a good place to start off.

Here's a favorite of mine:

The world is a flat circular disc, covered by a crystal/ice dome.

Please show me that verse or verses.
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28-04-2010, 02:08 PM
 
RE: Loopholes
I'm sorry, maybe I'm just slow on the uptake. Can you explain to me, in your own words, what perfection is?
"Please show me that verse or verses."

Isaiah 40:22 may be interpreted as meaning, a flat circular earth. Obviously it is dependent upon the political persuasion of the time. In addition the Hebrew word raqiya‘, or ‘firmament’ in the King James Version, implies a solid dome over the earth.

Obviously one may 'interpret' this however one likes.
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28-04-2010, 02:17 PM
RE: Loopholes
(28-04-2010 01:56 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Satan to the best of my knowledge, of course anyone can say anything, that satan was an angel.

Then what is your objection to Ceryle stating as such?

Quote:God cannot be imperfect. That would be a category mistake.

Can a perfect being ever become imperfect?

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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28-04-2010, 02:52 PM
 
RE: Loopholes
(28-04-2010 02:17 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(28-04-2010 01:56 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Satan to the best of my knowledge, of course anyone can say anything, that satan was an angel.

Then what is your objection to Ceryle stating as such?

Quote:God cannot be imperfect. That would be a category mistake.

Can a perfect being ever become imperfect?

Satan was perfect up until the time he wasn't, satan is a created being, God by definition is not a created being and cannot ever be imperfect. The word in Hebrew for perfect was "Flawless" but never the less, satan created with free will, God uncreated, never changing, and this is where we get Immutability: This simply means that God never changes. It is why the Bible says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”
(28-04-2010 02:08 PM)Ceryle Wrote:  I'm sorry, maybe I'm just slow on the uptake. Can you explain to me, in your own words, what perfection is?
"Please show me that verse or verses."

Isaiah 40:22 may be interpreted as meaning, a flat circular earth. Obviously it is dependent upon the political persuasion of the time. In addition the Hebrew word raqiya‘, or ‘firmament’ in the King James Version, implies a solid dome over the earth.

Obviously one may 'interpret' this however one likes.

Regarding "a flat circular earth" doesn't say flat, so we can get rid of that. What world should they used instead of "circle"?
Let me help:

Ball-Origin 1625–35
Sphere-Origin 1250–1300
Globe- Origin 1400–50
Orb- Origin 1520–30

How about circle! When did that word come into existence? 1700 BC – The Rhind papyrus gives a method to find the area of a circular field. The result corresponds to 256/81 (3.16049...) as an approximate value of π. WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!
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28-04-2010, 03:36 PM
 
RE: Loopholes
You're going to make the case, that the concept of a circle, came later than the concept of a sphere?

Hypothetically speaking, let's run with this for a little bit.

Say you have...Sadie.

Sadie is a perfect entity; it doesn't matter what form she holds, or anything really, other than the fact that she is perfect; as well as possessing free will(just because).

Can you explain to me, how somewhere along the line, Sadie could stop being a perfect entity, and start being an imperfect entity?
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28-04-2010, 05:17 PM
RE: Loopholes
(28-04-2010 02:52 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Satan was perfect up until the time he wasn't, satan is a created being, God by definition is not a created being and cannot ever be imperfect. The word in Hebrew for perfect was "Flawless" but never the less, satan created with free will, God uncreated, never changing, and this is where we get Immutability: This simply means that God never changes. It is why the Bible says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

So God does not have free will?

Quote:Regarding "a flat circular earth" doesn't say flat, so we can get rid of that. What world should they used instead of "circle"?

We've been over this, Martin. They used "chuwg", which is Hebrew for flat circular, while they could have used "duwr", which is Hebrew for spherical circular.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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29-04-2010, 08:30 PM
 
RE: Loopholes
So, I'm going to take a wild guess, and say that Martin has decided it's not possible to have a perfect entity, become imperfect. Seeing as how he appears to be avoiding this topic; and that the questions presented remain unanswered.

http://thethinkingatheist.com/forum/show...13#pid3713

I'll be posting a thread sometime in the near future, outlining this particular concept(extending from Lucifers perfection, or lack thereof and on) that has been developed here. As I think it to be an interesting argument; that is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to argue against.
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02-05-2010, 03:40 PM
 
RE: Loopholes
No offense, but this martin guy just seems to be an "oddball" addition to the site as in the one christian that just rambles on, i mean i really don't get what he's trying to do here, he avoids answering questions, goes around the bends, talks on and on about things that are veering off from the conversational topic, he's worse then my parents when i get into a religious argument with them, but that's just because i try to stop the conversation as fast as possible because arguing with Christians about their faith makes me go homicidal. luckily nobody's been hurt yet, hahaha. =P
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02-05-2010, 03:48 PM
RE: Loopholes
We have a kind of love/hate relationship with Martin. It'd certainly be much less interesting here without him.

He may be a theist, but he's our theist.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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02-05-2010, 03:56 PM
 
RE: Loopholes
(02-05-2010 03:48 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  We have a kind of love/hate relationship with Martin. It'd certainly be much less interesting here without him.

He may be a theist, but he's our theist.

AHHHH...Thanks Unbeliever, I knew you cared. Been busy at work and with some personal things but soon I will be back to rambling and avoiding questions and veering off topic as soon as I can.
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