Love sucks???????
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16-02-2017, 12:24 AM
Love sucks???????
Well, not exactly, but I've come to the realization that the world doesn't need love so much as it needs an obliteration of hatred.

If fact, I always find myself distrusting someone who goes around preaching "love your neighbor". I find myself wondering what he or she is trying to finagle me out of.

Humanist morality is far superior to most religious moralities, for the simple reason that it is not based on the ignorant injunction to "love your neighbor". It is based, most often, on the acknowledgment that other people's right to happiness and freedom from suffering are equal to our own. And that it is, generally, immoral to deny them this right. I say, generally, because there are situations in which it is justified to deny them their rights--such as in defending ourselves or our property.

If there is such a thing as an objective standard for moral behavior, this is it.

My primary objection to religious morality--other than it usually being based on the rantings of a madman--is that it promotes tribalism rather than universalism--an us versus them mentality that, inevitably leads to hatred and distrust for those who are not in the "in" group.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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16-02-2017, 12:50 AM
RE: Love sucks???????
(16-02-2017 12:24 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  Humanist morality is far superior to most religious moralities, for the simple reason that it is not based on the ignorant injunction to "love your neighbor". It is based, most often, on the acknowledgment that other people's right to happiness and freedom from suffering are equal to our own. And that it is, generally, immoral to deny them this right. I say, generally, because there are situations in which it is justified to deny them their rights--such as in defending ourselves or our property.

If there is such a thing as an objective standard for moral behavior, this is it.

My primary objection to religious morality--other than it usually being based on the rantings of a madman--is that it promotes tribalism rather than universalism--an us versus them mentality that, inevitably leads to hatred and distrust for those who are not in the "in" group.

Acknowledgement of rights? What rights? Where do these rights come from? What property are they grounded in? And why do you get to set the objective standard? What's wrong with someone who says morality is based on hating everyone?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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16-02-2017, 05:18 AM
RE: Love sucks???????
(16-02-2017 12:24 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  --other than it usually being based on the rantings of a madman--

I resemble that remark. Sadcryface

If the Gwynnies come and find you and you end up with a big stupid grin on your face unable to do anything but be silly, happy, and sharing of the joy; you'll know what's what. Tongue

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16-02-2017, 05:32 AM
RE: Love sucks???????
Love sucks???

She might, if you'd take a shower and ask nicely.....

...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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16-02-2017, 06:50 AM
RE: Love sucks???????
Not what I expected from the thread title...

Empathy is something we are born with in keeping with the instinct for survival of the species. Evolution being the capricious lady she is, each of us is endowed with it to a different degree. Some have none (psychopaths), some have so much that they are in constant pain, and most of us fall someplace in between.

None of this has anything to do with love or philosophy.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-02-2017, 08:40 AM
RE: Love sucks???????
(16-02-2017 12:24 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  Well, not exactly, but I've come to the realization that the world doesn't need love so much as it needs an obliteration of hatred.

If fact, I always find myself distrusting someone who goes around preaching "love your neighbor". I find myself wondering what he or she is trying to finagle me out of.
In the absence of any insight into the character of the one professing love, that is arguably a decent default position, and even a good general fallback position given that no one's motives are entirely selfless or pure as the driven snow. However, I have, if only imperfectly and intermittently, experienced real, selfless love (where love is defined as someone else choosing to reckon your needs / desires equal to, and in some situations superior to, their own). And I have experienced it both by giving and receiving.

The problem is that in actual point of fact, no one is objectively "special" or "superlative" such that they "deserve" this kind of consideration relative to anyone else. It's all personal subjective judgments, whether you're talking about special relationships or general compassion and empathy and charity for the disadvantaged or victimized. So in a sense love is just a shared fiction we all selectively participate in, whereas what you call "the obliteration of hatred" has a far more objective justification grounded in the same factors that render love somewhat delusional. By this I mean, that no human is more or less deserving of love in the abstract sense, as we are all equal. But no one is deserving of hatred for the very same reason. Hatred is just disappointed love. Hatred might be very unaware, unfocused and ill-considered disappointment (you are not of my tribe or race! how disappointing, especially if you are enjoying success and happiness of any kind, and triply so if you are enjoying more than I am!). Or it may be more rational (you broke into my house and killed my family and left me for dead). But until you recognize hatred as just the flip side of love, you are batting at shadows trying to "eradicate" it.

So I would say no one is more or less deserving of either hatred or love. Both are subsumed in the realization that we share in each other's humanity. As a pragmatic matter, of course, one must "trust but verify" because not everyone is equally self-aware or other-centered or honest.

In the end, reality is what sucks, not aspects of it like love. The good news is, we have a good deal of power to make it suck less, and to suck less over large-scale time by establishing societal and moral systems that free people to be more fully realized humans.
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16-02-2017, 09:16 AM
RE: Love sucks???????
(16-02-2017 12:50 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(16-02-2017 12:24 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  Humanist morality...

Acknowledgement of rights? What rights? Where do these rights come from? What property are they grounded in? And why do you get to set the objective standard? What's wrong with someone who says morality is based on hating everyone?

Yes!
Human Rights!
We are social creatures!
I don't set the standard, I just acknowledge it"s existence!
They are insane!

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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16-02-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Love sucks???????
(16-02-2017 08:40 AM)mordant Wrote:  You have said a lot, here, and I think we are in substantial agreement

I have, if only imperfectly and intermittently, experienced real, selfless love (where love is defined as someone else choosing to reckon your needs / desires equal to, and in some situations superior to, their own).

I'm not opposed to love, as such, but. rather. to someone trying to make you feel guilt if you don't feel love, in a given situation. This, I think, is an effort to manipulate you through your emotions.

It's all personal subjective judgments, whether you're talking about special relationships or general compassion and empathy and charity for the disadvantaged or victimized.

Because we have empathy with others, we feel compassion for those who are suffering. It is subjective in that some have more compassion than others, I believe based upon that individual's life experiences.

So in a sense love is just a shared fiction we all selectively participate in, whereas what you call "the obliteration of hatred" has a far more objective justification grounded in the same factors that render love somewhat delusional.

I think love, as an emotion, is largely delusional, but love, as a form of compassion for all humanity (a natural bi-product of genuine empathy), is not.

By this I mean, that no human is more or less deserving of love in the abstract sense, as we are all equal. But no one is deserving of hatred for the very same reason. Hatred is just disappointed love. Hatred might be very unaware, unfocused and ill-considered disappointment (you are not of my tribe or race! how disappointing, especially if you are enjoying success and happiness of any kind, and triply so if you are enjoying more than I am!). Or it may be more rational (you broke into my house and killed my family and left me for dead). But until you recognize hatred as just the flip side of love, you are batting at shadows trying to "eradicate" it.

I agree. Trying to force oneself to love and being disappointed almost, inevitably, leads to hatred for the object of affection. Love is something that happens to us, not something we choose to do.

In the end, reality is what sucks, not aspects of it like love. The good news is, we have a good deal of power to make it suck less, and to suck less over large-scale time by establishing societal and moral systems that free people to be more fully realized humans.

Admittedly, sometimes reality sucks, but, at other times, it is incredibly beautiful. We endure the former times to enjoy the latter times

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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16-02-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: Love sucks???????

Mordant,

Sorry about screwing up the format of my reply. I am still trying to learn to use this forum.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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16-02-2017, 10:15 AM
RE: Love sucks???????
(16-02-2017 12:24 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  Well, not exactly, but I've come to the realization that the world doesn't need love so much as it needs an obliteration of hatred.

If fact, I always find myself distrusting someone who goes around preaching "love your neighbor". I find myself wondering what he or she is trying to finagle me out of.

Humanist morality is far superior to most religious moralities, for the simple reason that it is not based on the ignorant injunction to "love your neighbor". It is based, most often, on the acknowledgment that other people's right to happiness and freedom from suffering are equal to our own. And that it is, generally, immoral to deny them this right. I say, generally, because there are situations in which it is justified to deny them their rights--such as in defending ourselves or our property.

If there is such a thing as an objective standard for moral behavior, this is it.

My primary objection to religious morality--other than it usually being based on the rantings of a madman--is that it promotes tribalism rather than universalism--an us versus them mentality that, inevitably leads to hatred and distrust for those who are not in the "in" group.

I think that religious morality leads to tribalism, hatred and fear because it holds sacrifice as its standard of virtue and need as its standard of value. Under this type of moral basis You hate the man who has more than you do because he has a moral obligation to sacrifice his wealth and he isn't. He's keeping it for himself. You fear and resent the man who has less than you. You have a moral obligation to sacrifice your wealth and give it to him, but you earned it damn it! So you must grudgingly comply and cheat as much as you can get away with. This is not a recipe for brotherly love and kindness. Also when the group is the standard of the good, then the individual is always on the outside. So he must join a group and fight with other groups for his rights. Force becomes the standard of virtue. My group is more powerful than your group. We have more muscle and more congressmen in our pocket.

Unfortunately, secular morality is based on the same basic principles as religious morality. Selfless sacrifice, the group as the standard of the good, the worship of need. It leads to the welfare state, and group force which leads to the us verses them mentality that you decry. I am not a Humanist because from what I have read about it, it is just a secularized version of the morality of self-sacrifice. At best what we get from it is a mixed system of some individualism and some collectivism, just as we have here in the U.S. But the mixture is unstable and always moves toward collectivism out of a desire to equalize outcomes (evade the law of causality) which is what we see here in the U.S. We are moving more and more towards collectivism and hence tribalism and conflict and judging by the ideas held by the vast majority, we won't be moving towards individualism for a long time to come if ever. Every where you look you see people grouping together to demand the unearned and you see hatred and irrationality spreading like a fungus. It's only a matter of time before it all blows up, that is certain unless people make a radical shift in their thinking.

What is needed is a total break from the morality of selflessness to a full, uncompromising morality of rational self-interest based on man's life, his individual life as the standard of value and reason, production and trade as the standard of virtue. What's needed is a morality of rational self-interest not irrational self- immolation. Then you will have peace and good will and kindness in society that you are looking for. There can be no conflict among men who do not demand the unearned and the irrational (a redundancy, I know) and who don't look at each other as sacrificial animals but sovereign individuals who's rights are absolutes.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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