Lying about war reasons
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-04-2012, 06:30 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
The flaw in the oil theory is that war upsets the markets and does nothing to stabilize prices. The other being that Iraq is still a sovereign nation. We have not stolen or laid claim to a drop of oil there.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2012, 06:58 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
I think we went to war for a number of reasons with Iraq. I do think oil was one of them. Unfortunately we went in without a clear plan. We didn't know what victory would look like or how to exit. When this is added to the myopic view held by most of the West when it comes to that part of the world in terms of society, religion and politics you end up with trouble.

At one time they had WMDs and in fact used them on the Kurds. The had worked on nuclear capability. They repeatedly offered a safe haven, assistance and support to terrorists. I think the people who pushed for this did so more out of ideology than to address Iraq' behavior.

I totally agree with germanyt "The flaw in the oil theory is that war upsets the markets and does nothing to stabilize prices. The other being that Iraq is still a sovereign nation. We have not stolen or laid claim to a drop of oil there."

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2012, 11:04 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
(28-04-2012 06:58 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  I think we went to war for a number of reasons with Iraq. I do think oil was one of them. Unfortunately we went in without a clear plan. We didn't know what victory would look like or how to exit. When this is added to the myopic view held by most of the West when it comes to that part of the world in terms of society, religion and politics you end up with trouble.

At one time they had WMDs and in fact used them on the Kurds. The had worked on nuclear capability. They repeatedly offered a safe haven, assistance and support to terrorists. I think the people who pushed for this did so more out of ideology than to address Iraq' behavior.

I totally agree with germanyt "The flaw in the oil theory is that war upsets the markets and does nothing to stabilize prices. The other being that Iraq is still a sovereign nation. We have not stolen or laid claim to a drop of oil there."
Why do you think the invasion was so unorganized?

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: Lying about war reasons
(26-04-2012 10:10 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  If America had invaded Iraq and said "Well America is in need of some more oil to try to stave off pending fuel disasters." would you be more or less opposed to the war than you were/are with it being conducted under the guise of "searching for WMDs"?


Personally I think I might have been a little more tolerant, or at least have had a better idea how to react, if there was no lying about the motivation.

I think a war to gather resources to help your people is more 'nobel' than if you conduct the war, but lying about the reasons.

Thoughts?
I doubt anyone would have been less upset if they said it was for oil. "We are going to war for oil we don't need" really doesn't sound any better than "we're going to war because of WMDs that they don't have".

I seriously think they used WMDs as a reason, not as a cover for oil, but, because they knew expanding the war on terror wouldn't have been a popular idea politically. They though of Iraq as a nation security issue, as well as in the best interest of the US in the long term as far as foreign affairs went. Lying was more of a political cover to them advancing an unpopular defense/foreign affairs agenda. They probably also thought that there wouldn't have been anyone who would come forward and say that they were acting on false intelligence, and if there was someone to come forward that they could keep them quiet. It was probably a smart bet given the short term memory of Americans. If they could have started and ended or just went deep into the war, without the mentioning of them going in on false intelligence (or at least lying about the intelligence), I doubt the mainstream public would have gave a shit that they didn't find the WMDs; by then the reason for going to war would have been forgotten by most and they could switch up stories (kind of like Bush did anyways) to justify going in and say it was for a good cause/made the world safer, etc.

If they were to tell the truth, they would have had to say that there were terrorist organizations being allowed into Iraq by Saddam, turning into a safe haven (though many tried to argue that there weren't any in Iraq until after we arrived), that they felt seeing Saddam fall would be in out best interest as a country for both current and future security and foreign affairs, and a whole bunch of similar ideas that people would have widely argued against and rejected.

They were probably behind closed doors one day and were deciding to go to Iraq, so they started brainstorming and realized WMDs would have been the best excuse and easiest way to get in.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2012, 05:20 PM
RE: Lying about war reasons
War - Destroy the adversary's resources and war making capability. Disrupt the lives of the average citizen. Collateral damage is always expected.
Reason - Don't give a reason... Just do it!
Occupation - Do not allow your adversary's enemy to set up shop in same locale. Kick their ass as well.
Forces - Sacrifice soldiers with sub-standard intelligence, cameras and access to YouTube.
Lesson - Do not stick around and rebuild resources and expect a pat on the back. Duuuhhh.
Exit - Always have an exit strategy. Just leave the place in shambles.
Budget - ALWAYS make a profit off of war.

"I feel like the weight of the world has been lifted from my shoulders...
Thanks for getting off my back!"
-
Arcticspear Idea
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-04-2012, 07:36 PM
RE: Lying about war reasons
Just putting it out there that Japan bombed Pearl harbor because USA was blocking trade of oil, steal and other things to Japan because the Japanese were expanding into the pacific and south Asia which is right where USA was trying desperately to expand it's influence.

Point being, yes Pearl Harbor was a very major factor, BUT, there was more motives then just they sank my battleships.

Same with WW1. The assassination was a factor, BUT, Austria was itching for a fight with Serbia that any excuse would have done the trick.


I know this is a little contradicting to my last post, but maybe there is other influences for the war in Iraq, such as mentioned about oil and political gain. While USA might not have claimed a single drop of oil think about this. If you invade a country and set up a government that YOU want, who do you think they will trade that oil too when the dust settles? As well as gaining a platform in the middle east. You have a lot of political power of that country. "you wont trade with us? remember that time we put you power?".

I dunno, I don't know much about the war in Iraq (being from New Zealand. We've been to every war with Australia as ANZACs since WW1 until this one when we refused to go.), the whole thing seems to be one big clusterfuck dating back to the cold war.

[Image: 3cdac7eec8f6b059070d9df56f50a7ae.jpg]
Now with 40% more awesome.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-04-2012, 02:13 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
(28-04-2012 05:20 PM)arcticspear Wrote:  War - Destroy the adversary's resources and war making capability. Disrupt the lives of the average citizen. Collateral damage is always expected.
Reason - Don't give a reason... Just do it!
Occupation - Do not allow your adversary's enemy to set up shop in same locale. Kick their ass as well.
Forces - Sacrifice soldiers with sub-standard intelligence, cameras and access to YouTube.
Lesson - Do not stick around and rebuild resources and expect a pat on the back. Duuuhhh.
Exit - Always have an exit strategy. Just leave the place in shambles.
Budget - ALWAYS make a profit off of war.
Funny how there was a reason given, it is impossible to prevent terrorists from setting up shop in the same locale, Operation Iraqi freedom was brucking dumb, we left the place in shambles because the country refuses to be unshambled, the U.S did not profit from the war.

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2012, 01:42 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
OK, are you people fucking with me, trolling me, or are you really this ignorant? USA didn't take a drop of oil from Iraq? So I guess I am retarded idiot who doesn't know how to read then, because this is what first random Google search says...

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/feature...71641.html

So, it appears that there are A LOT of western oil companies there, as it also appears that the Iraq is the SECOND LARGEST oil field in the world...

Who is the one here that said that the war there didn't bring nothing but instability and higher oil prices? WTF do you think, did this high oil price made oil companies richer or poorer? Isn't BUSH one huge oil company man?

This is simple, logical and SIMPLE! It is not some crazy elaborate plan that people like Bush can never come up with , this is the most simple type of spreading your influence. And BTW, Bush is not that stupid as he wants everybody to think, he is one very powerful, rich individual, who had 2 presidential mandates in the White House. He is definitely smarter than any single person that voted for him.

If USA is not all about money and resources, but it was going to war because of democracy, freedom, defending the weak, protecting the world from WMD or nuclear weapons, then they would be all over Africa, South Korea, Turkey, Africa again, and more Africa. But, you do not see any soldiers defending people in Rwanda, Uganda, Somalia... Too much desert, too little strategic resources, so the whole conflict is meaningless.

The US did not profit from war? No?! That would mean that the Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #34 that states "War is good for business" is a false statement? Shame on you. Smile Seriously, it is only during war that the big weapon companies get huge money injections and that the production of weapons is growing rapidly. War IS always good for business, specially if you just obtained huge oil reserves...

It is unbelievable that USA citizens always have such a biased opinion about their country, I get it, you are patriots, you love your country, subconsciously you need to believe at least a part of the "story", but this is so laid out in plain sight, you really need to close your eyes completely to just ignore it all.

You all do realise that USA still has the lowest oil prices (not counting Saudi Arabia)? Something needs to maintain all that cheep oil, and do not tell me how high the prices are today, you still have much better standard and much lower prices than the rest of us.

Such a joke, Bush went to Iraq to stop an evil man and destroy his weapons... Such a children story, such a nice joke...


Smile

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2012, 07:46 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
(29-04-2012 02:13 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(28-04-2012 05:20 PM)arcticspear Wrote:  War - Destroy the adversary's resources and war making capability. Disrupt the lives of the average citizen. Collateral damage is always expected.
Reason - Don't give a reason... Just do it!
Occupation - Do not allow your adversary's enemy to set up shop in same locale. Kick their ass as well.
Forces - Sacrifice soldiers with sub-standard intelligence, cameras and access to YouTube.
Lesson - Do not stick around and rebuild resources and expect a pat on the back. Duuuhhh.
Exit - Always have an exit strategy. Just leave the place in shambles.
Budget - ALWAYS make a profit off of war.
the U.S did not profit from the war.
I'm not saying this means anything, I'm just playing devil's adv. Dick Cheney likely made millions from the military products produced by Halliburton.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-04-2012, 04:49 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2012 04:53 PM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Lying about war reasons
(28-04-2012 05:48 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I find it hard to believe USA went to war in Iraq for oil.

I don't understand this idea anyway. I mean look at this way, you invade a country, there happens to be oil, you're gonna use that capture oil are you not?
You see it's not a primary objective, it is just... a bonus.

Plus I don't know about you but here down-under gas prices have kept going up and up and up..
You should, because its bull shit. We aren't there to help people either...
We are there for one reason, corporate welfare.

The US military is by far the largest consumer of petrol.
Attacking countries who produce oil, shockingly lowers the amount of oil they can export.
Now Combine that with the trillions we have spent on the war, take 2 milliseconds to think, and it should be pretty damn clear that the whole "we are there for the oil" argument falls apart.

Yah prices have been on an upward swing on average.
$3.55 for the cheap grade where I live at atm, which doesn't sound like a lot to you guys I am sure.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: