Lying about war reasons
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01-05-2012, 12:45 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
(28-04-2012 01:05 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(26-04-2012 10:10 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  If America had invaded Iraq and said "Well America is in need of some more oil to try to stave off pending fuel disasters." would you be more or less opposed to the war than you were/are with it being conducted under the guise of "searching for WMDs"?


Personally I think I might have been a little more tolerant, or at least have had a better idea how to react, if there was no lying about the motivation.

I think a war to gather resources to help your people is more 'nobel' than if you conduct the war, but lying about the reasons.

Thoughts?
I doubt anyone would have been less upset if they said it was for oil. "We are going to war for oil we don't need" really doesn't sound any better than "we're going to war because of WMDs that they don't have".

I seriously think they used WMDs as a reason, not as a cover for oil, but, because they knew expanding the war on terror wouldn't have been a popular idea politically. They though of Iraq as a nation security issue, as well as in the best interest of the US in the long term as far as foreign affairs went. Lying was more of a political cover to them advancing an unpopular defense/foreign affairs agenda. They probably also thought that there wouldn't have been anyone who would come forward and say that they were acting on false intelligence, and if there was someone to come forward that they could keep them quiet. It was probably a smart bet given the short term memory of Americans. If they could have started and ended or just went deep into the war, without the mentioning of them going in on false intelligence (or at least lying about the intelligence), I doubt the mainstream public would have gave a shit that they didn't find the WMDs; by then the reason for going to war would have been forgotten by most and they could switch up stories (kind of like Bush did anyways) to justify going in and say it was for a good cause/made the world safer, etc.

If they were to tell the truth, they would have had to say that there were terrorist organizations being allowed into Iraq by Saddam, turning into a safe haven (though many tried to argue that there weren't any in Iraq until after we arrived), that they felt seeing Saddam fall would be in out best interest as a country for both current and future security and foreign affairs, and a whole bunch of similar ideas that people would have widely argued against and rejected.

They were probably behind closed doors one day and were deciding to go to Iraq, so they started brainstorming and realized WMDs would have been the best excuse and easiest way to get in.

The sad thing is that , if we went in there for oil, we really did not get ANY oil from Iraq by invading it and removing Saddam. Most of our oil imports come from Canada, Mexico and Venezuela. Middle eastern oil accounts for as little as 10% of our imported oil.

As to the origina question, no. Simply needing a natural resource and taking it by force without any attempt to do so through business transactions or other civilized channels does not justify invading a country.

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01-05-2012, 08:35 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
I'd like to invoke Ockham's Razor.


IMO the simplest explanation is that rising emotional tension in the US sparked the invasion of Afghanistan. How does a government explain to it's people what happened without proposing war? Obviously we couldn't just 'take the punch'. And since we already had significant resources and manpower in the area it was fairly easy to decide to handle Saddam while we were there. He was doing some pretty horrific things to his people and we were right down the road from him.

I guess you oil mongerers also think we went into Lybia for oil. Confused

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02-05-2012, 05:38 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2012 05:50 AM by Filox.)
RE: Lying about war reasons
OK, it appears I need a drawing board...

- George Bush Senior - owner, co-founder, board of directors, chairman of several oil companies - starts the war with Iraq
- George Bush Junior - owner, co-founder, board of directors, chairman of several oil companies - starts the war with Iraq, again.

Just this "small" fact doesn't sound strange to none of you?

A bit about economy... If you have something and you are selling that product to the people, the higher the price of that product, the more money you will earn, since it is all percentage based, not fixed. So, this higher prices of oil are filling the pockets of Bush family faster than they were before.

As for the military and weapon manufacturers... Weapon industry is very big player in USA's economy and we all know that weapons are being sold in the time of war/trouble. Also, we all know that the whole industry gets more money from government in the time of war/trouble. If the military is spending a lot of petrol, specially in time of war/trouble, that only means that more oil would be sold, thus making more profit. - The government reserves more money for the military (because of war/troulbe) in this year, the military spends more money on petrol, because they are on the move, and YOU, the tax payers are the ones that will give that money to the government, so that they can re-distribute it to the military, so that the military can spend more on petrol, since they need it to move during the war/trouble. You see, expensive oil does not cost your country or military NOTHING, it costs YOU, the people more, because YOU are the ones that fill cash register through taxes. I'm guessing you are not that good at economy if you fail to see this...

What we have failed to define in the beginning of this story is the fact "who" is getting richer. We have started to argue, because we are fighting whether the USA is getting richer or not. Actually it is not, because only individuals are getting richer, but not the whole country. This is pretty important thing I didn't mention before. Persons like Bush are to be blamed for invading Iraq, not the whole country and he (or they) are the ones that are getting richer, since their companies are in Iraq drilling oil, while the oil prices are getting higher and higher. Of course, Bush is only one player in a larger game.

These facts are what they are, just facts, this is not a conspiracy theory, you can check these facts whenever you want.

So, when you connect a few dots, it just becomes simple. Antirepublican said it good, more precise than I did:

Quote: We are there for one reason, corporate welfare.
It is not only oil, it is a corporate thing, one big ball of problems, all connected together.


If you follow the foreign policy of USA, you can see how they change the stance as soon as some country refuses to play by their rules. Great example is Venezuela. I love what they did, that Hugo guy just saved his own country. You may not even know what exactly has he done... He has put all the strategic resources under state property, while expelling foreign companies. Now, Argentina is doing something similar. It is the only way to save their countries from these world events, like world economy crises. Cuba and Venezuela did not have an economic crises, as the rest of us did. Maybe because they are not depending on anybody anymore? Interesting...


P.S.

There are those who will say that one man like Bush, can not run the whole country, the laws, the wars and everything else just for his profit. I would then refer you to DuPont and the law that has made Cannabis illegal. DuPont was the one that pushed the legislation into passing, and strangely, but he is the world biggest cotton industry owner and also, he is the one that invented nylon, so hemp was a terrible cheap and easy alternative, so it had to be outlawed. Also, strangely, DuPont is into pharmaceutical industry as well... Yeah, one man alone could never push some legislation or law in USA, no way...

Big Grin

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02-05-2012, 08:31 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
One can connect the dots all the way to conspiracy in any situation. I'm not sure who you're directing that post at Filox but some of your information is wrong. I'm not sure why you felt the need to include non related material like hemp and pharm but DuPont was not and has never been in the cotton or paper industry. I'm aware that the paper industry lobbied the outlaw of hemp but that is irrelevant. You are comparing a profitable comapny that kills no one to a consipiracy (or lie, whatever you want to call it) by the President of the United States to invade a country and costs not only the ridiculous amount of money to taxpayers but also the lives of thousands of American an foreign troops and civilians. And what good is an oil profit if you tank the economy? That is so stupid, man. I know you are smarter than that. You think that one man, a man many call the special ed president, conspired to kill thousands of people and tank the economy just so he could turn oil profits? Profits that he doesn't even seen to use since he's been living in the same 3000 sq ft house in Texas for 30 years.

That's almost as silly as claiming the US responsible for 9/11.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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03-05-2012, 03:59 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
Quote: You think that one man, a man many call the special ed president, conspired to kill thousands of people and tank the economy just so he could turn oil profits? Profits that he doesn't even seen to use since he's been living in the same 3000 sq ft house in Texas for 30 years.


That's almost as silly as claiming the US responsible for 9/11.
Yes, I think exactly that. There are people who do not see the world as me and you. So sending some people to their death is not the same thing to them or to you and me. Where he lives has nothing to do with his bank account. Since the oil prices are rapidly growing and he is the owner/director of several oil companies, it is only logical to assume that his bank account is growing as well, right?

As for 9/11... I'm not so sure about this, it is a bit too stretched to claim that the US government is fully responsible, but to some extend they are. There is just too many holes in the story, so if they were not responsible, they have at least turned their head to some facts. I mean, at least some evidences were framed, like the terrorist passports that were found around the building, pretty unharmed, yet everything else was completely burned and ruined. Or the "missing" plane crash at Pentagon. Photos or anything that would suggest there was a plane at Pentagon? Anything? So, there are holes and gaps in all of it...

OK, I see it is hard to explain some things to a republican, as it is impossible to explain some things to the religious person. I only hope you never actually voted for Bush, because it is not enough to be a republican to get the voices of republicans, right?

Just be careful about the "war reason" they serve you, the truth is nowhere near the "facts" they tell in the media, so maybe I am wrong, but it's just way too connected and fishy to be "just a coincidence"... I have my theory for those coincidences, you have your explanations, guess it's best to leave it at that.

P.S.

Nigga please, do not insult me...

http://www2.dupont.com/Prod_Agriculture/...ction.html
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes...er-s-kalsi
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/dupont-c...abric.html
http://www.lightinthebox.com/waterproof-...20712.html

Big Grin

As for my using of hemp, it was just an example how those with a lot of money and influence can change laws and legislations, without being a part of Senate or government. It has happened throughout history, it is still happening today. It was not just some random ranting, it is all connected. Apparently, I see all things connected differently...

Anyway, I'm done, this is a nice subject, but one can go crazy over it, so I'll leave it alone. Don't want germanyt sending troops to free me and bring democracy here...

Big Grin

Peace.

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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03-05-2012, 05:30 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
(01-05-2012 08:35 AM)germanyt Wrote:  I'd like to invoke Ockham's Razor.


IMO the simplest explanation is that rising emotional tension in the US sparked the invasion of Afghanistan. How does a government explain to it's people what happened without proposing war? Obviously we couldn't just 'take the punch'. And since we already had significant resources and manpower in the area it was fairly easy to decide to handle Saddam while we were there. He was doing some pretty horrific things to his people and we were right down the road from him.

I guess you oil mongerers also think we went into Lybia for oil. Confused
The thing about Ockham's Razor is that it doesn't revive ideas that don't make sense.

We aren't there for oil, at least not for ensuring a surplus in the US. If that were the case, we could have bought a lot with the trillions of dollars worth with what we spent on the war. The US military is also the #1 consumer of petrol in the world. So oil surplus is obviously out.

Helping the people even makes less sense, as many posters have stated. There are a lot of people throughout the world that we don't help in far more dire situations.

So what simple solution is left?
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03-05-2012, 07:37 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
You still don't get my words. It's not about owning the oil (and other resources) here and now, it is about securing the whole region, making allies there (by peace or force) and securing the strategic resources in that area, so that you do not need to transport your resources from Canada to USA to Iraq, you have it all in one place.

Damn it people, you drag me back into this again. Big Grin It will become much more clear if you would only start playing strategic games, like Cid Meyers Civilization. Just download the damn game, play it for a few weeks and see what you must do to secure your state and why you have to make wars from time to time. It IS as simple as that, you just complicate things. Plus, I see a lot of you have no idea about economy or what makes the economy go faster, so this discussion is starting to get a bit silly.

P.S
I am not referring to anyone in particularity here, I am talking to everyone who has a different opinion than I have.

Bye!

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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03-05-2012, 08:02 AM
RE: Lying about war reasons
(03-05-2012 03:59 AM)Filox Wrote:  http://www2.dupont.com/Prod_Agriculture/...ction.html
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes...er-s-kalsi
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/dupont-c...abric.html
http://www.lightinthebox.com/waterproof-...ge-15-c-5-
Then it's a new development. They certanly didn't have any influence in the paper or cotton industry from 1860-1930.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuPont

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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05-05-2012, 05:00 PM
RE: Lying about war reasons
Why can't we just stop fighting over who gets what, and work and together and share so everyone benefits?
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05-05-2012, 06:30 PM
RE: Lying about war reasons
(05-05-2012 05:00 PM)Magoo Wrote:  Why can't we just stop fighting over who gets what, and work and together and share so everyone benefits?
Because that's communism (in theory) son.

Greed in other words. Why buy something when you can get it for free?? When was the last time I brought a CD or a song off itunes? never, yet I still listen to music all the time...

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