Lying for the Cause
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29-10-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
(22-10-2017 06:31 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  
(17-10-2017 12:34 PM)mordant Wrote:  The ACA will be gone when I get a letter from my wife's insurer telling me so and inviting her to sign up for private insurance at triple the cost. Until then Trump can fuck off.

Of course that day could well come at the rate he's deliberately undermining the healthcare system.

I have been a grateful Obamacare supporter since day one. It has been a salvation for us.

"The day could well come..." Watch you mail. That day came for us this week. We got a letter from our insurance company (insurance purchased through the Marketplace) that my and my husband's insurance premium will go up January, 2018 to a cost that is nearly 38% of our take-home pay each month. Obamacare IS dead. Trump killed it. We will NOT be able to be insured come January. It is not possible. And I have a handful of "pre-existing" conditions that require medication that we won't have funds for. Frankly, we are FUCKED. I feel like I've been handed a death sentence.
I am truly sorry to hear that.

My wife and I (both self employed) get by because we only have to pay for her on the exchange but I still am grandfathered under my late prior wife's retirement annuity which provides highly subsidized coverage from her former employer. Her coverage just went up about 35% and mine just went up about 45% for 2018.

I'm 60 and she's 58 and we worry about declining income and increasing health care needs. If we can't work at least into our 70s (maybe longer) I don't know how we're going to pull it off.
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29-10-2017, 08:50 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
(23-10-2017 01:58 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  [From October 13:] "Eighteen U.S. states sued President Donald Trump’s administration on Friday to stop him from scrapping a key component of Obamacare, subsidies to insurers that help millions of low-income people pay medical expenses, even as Trump invited Democratic leaders to negotiate a deal. "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-h...SKBN1CI0E4

Trump may want to kill the ACA, and may be trying to kill it, but that doen't mean he will be able to or that he has already done it.
True, however, I've heard that it's too late to fix the issue for 2018 because some insurers are just bailing and aren't interested in the business anymore; others are jacking premiums up to hedge against all this waffling.
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17-11-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
"As we crossed the 300-day mark of Donald Trump’s presidency on Thursday, fact-checkers noted that he has made more than 1,600 false or misleading claims. Good God. At least five times a day, on average, this president says something that isn’t true. We have a White House of lies because a huge percentage of the population can’t tell fact from fiction."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/opini...&smtyp=cur
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17-11-2017, 01:38 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
(17-11-2017 12:59 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  "As we crossed the 300-day mark of Donald Trump’s presidency on Thursday, fact-checkers noted that he has made more than 1,600 false or misleading claims. Good God. At least five times a day, on average, this president says something that isn’t true. We have a White House of lies because a huge percentage of the population can’t tell fact from fiction."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/opini...&smtyp=cur

I think that most Americans know that he is lying. It is more like a huge percentage of Americans simply don't care that he is lying. I have had some interesting discussions with low income people who voted for Trump and continue to support him. One to one discussions are completely different from discussions with a group. In person to person discussions, these people will acknowledge that they benefited enormously from the system that was put in place for them by the Clintons. Frequently, I will discover that they didn't know that the big Earned Income Tax Credit that they receive each year was something that the Clintons did for them. But even after being informed of that, they don't feel guilty about voting against Clinton, and continue to say that they would have voted for Trump anyway.

Then when I go through some of Trump's many lies, they will acknowledge that Trump lied. But they continue to support Trump anyway. I point out that they acknowledge that they benefited from the Clintons and that they agree Trump is a liar, and I ask them why they continue to support him. They really don't know why they are doing it. They give vague answers like, "He isn't a politician" and "He shakes things up."

On the other hand, I frequently talk to wealthy and well educated people who voted for Trump, and they really will insist that trickle down economics works, despite all evidence to the contrary. It is impossible to have a discussion with them, because I keep getting the feeling that they are intentionally lying for a flawed economic theory that benefits them.

I am worried. Despite his unpopularity in polls, I have yet to meet a person who voted for Trump who doesn't intend to vote for him again. I am getting this eerie feeling that he might actually get a second term.
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17-11-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
(16-10-2017 10:13 AM)unfogged Wrote:  It's people like William Lane Craig that I think are the real liars though. He's not a stupid or ignorant person and his arguments have been publicly shredded in his face so often that the idea that he doesn't understand how bad they are is just not believable. I have to conclude that he's deliberately lying.

He's made a GREAT deal of money, and continues to ... with his schtick.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-11-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
(17-11-2017 01:38 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  I think that most Americans know that he is lying. It is more like a huge percentage of Americans simply don't care that he is lying.

I think a lot of this is whataboutism. Most Trump supporters I talk to will immediately point to flaws in Democratic politicians in an attempt to steer the conversation away from either defending Trump's bad behavior or condemning him for it. Both are uncomfortable, but it feels good to point out the bad behavior of the other.


(17-11-2017 01:38 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  I am worried. Despite his unpopularity in polls, I have yet to meet a person who voted for Trump who doesn't intend to vote for him again. I am getting this eerie feeling that he might actually get a second term.

I think there is this huge valley between Trump supporters and opponents. People either love him or hate him. The ones that don't hate him might softly complain about his mannerisms, but will ultimately support him because of wanting the Republican party to win. These last 300 days have made the left really hate him... but they haven't done much to erode the support he already had. he's lost some, but there is much excuse-making and whataboutism coming from his supporters.
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17-11-2017, 02:10 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
(17-11-2017 01:38 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  I am worried. Despite his unpopularity in polls, I have yet to meet a person who voted for Trump who doesn't intend to vote for him again. I am getting this eerie feeling that he might actually get a second term.

At this point I think the 2020 election is the Democrat's to lose. If they run another bad candidate and the vote is suppressed because people don't like the choice and stay home then Trump's base will be there for him. If the Ds can run somebody even mildly inspiring and manage to motivate their base and the independents to turn out then they can put an end to this farce.

I'm just not seeing that they have anybody yet.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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17-11-2017, 02:27 PM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2017 02:44 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Lying for the Cause
(17-11-2017 02:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(17-11-2017 01:38 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  I am worried. Despite his unpopularity in polls, I have yet to meet a person who voted for Trump who doesn't intend to vote for him again. I am getting this eerie feeling that he might actually get a second term.

At this point I think the 2020 election is the Democrat's to lose. If they run another bad candidate and the vote is suppressed because people don't like the choice and stay home then Trump's base will be there for him. If the Ds can run somebody even mildly inspiring and manage to motivate their base and the independents to turn out then they can put an end to this farce.

I'm just not seeing that they have anybody yet.

Even a stiff like Joe Biden might beat Trump, but I hope Democrats come up with a younger and more inspiring option. Too bad Bernie Sanders is so old, since normally he would be next in line after his strong showing.
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17-11-2017, 03:20 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
(17-11-2017 02:27 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(17-11-2017 02:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  At this point I think the 2020 election is the Democrat's to lose. If they run another bad candidate and the vote is suppressed because people don't like the choice and stay home then Trump's base will be there for him. If the Ds can run somebody even mildly inspiring and manage to motivate their base and the independents to turn out then they can put an end to this farce.

I'm just not seeing that they have anybody yet.

Even a stiff like Joe Biden might beat Trump, but I hope Democrats come up with a younger and more inspiring option. Too bad Bernie Sanders is so old, since normally he would be next in line after his strong showing.

I don't necessarily want someone 'younger'. But one of my big disappointments with the Democratic part currently, is that they haven't accepted responsibility for being out of touch with their base. They are blaming Bernie for Hillary's loss, rather than saying, "Wait a minute. This Bernie guy is really in touch with a large part of our base and we need to adjust accordingly." My number one pick for 2020 is Robert Reich. I don't know if he will try to get the nod or not.
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17-11-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: Lying for the Cause
(17-11-2017 02:27 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Even a stiff like Joe Biden might beat Trump, but I hope Democrats come up with a younger and more inspiring option. Too bad Bernie Sanders is so old, since normally he would be next in line after his strong showing.

Sure, it's hypothetical, but currently, Biden is outpolling the shit out of Trump.
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