MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
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15-09-2018, 08:38 AM
MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
I am a Democratic Socialist. I am bitterly opposed to Trump. But I am also bitterly opposed to 'anyone but Trump' Democrats. I think that the most horrible legacy of the Trump administration is that it is going to cause Dems to reject anything that smells anything remotely 'Trumpian'. Trump did X, therefore X is bad. Anyone proposing anything remotely like X is bad.

'Anyone but Trump' isn't a plan. It is a Neanderthal bare knuckled brute force attack with no follow up. Opportunities to overwhelm Republicans by bare knuckled brute force of numbers don't come up very often. We have a rare opportunity to overwhelm congress and the White House, but we don't have a plan. Yes, there is 'Medicare For All'. But that's just one solution to one issue. It's part of a plan, a best.

We need to flesh out the plan. The truth is, a lot of liberal Democrats have been arguing for a trade war for many years. We didn't actually call it a trade war. But we did argue that we needed to tactically and strategically discourage offshoring and encourage reshoring, which is pretty much arguing for conducting a smart trade war by definition.

Traditionally, Democrats have been a bit skeptical that the primary purpose of Big Business is to maximize shareholder value. Democrats have argued that business also has a duty to look after the best interests of their employees, and to even take the best interest of their nation into account, and be good stewards of the environment.

Republicans are the ones who have been the big champions of maximizing shareholder value, and offshoring has been one of the most valuable tools in the maximum shareholder value toolbox.

So from the Democratic point of view, a well conducted trade war that will largely ween us off of the global supply chain is actually desirable. I don't trust Trump to conduct such a war. He wants to fight the war while also maintaining that maximum shareholder value is the highest good, which pretty much undermines the entire point of fighting the war.

But if we reject the entire concept of fighting a trade war because we associate that with Trump, then we have allowed Trump to redefine us. He might be onto something with this trade war. Perhaps we shouldn't completely reject it. Perhaps we should be looking for someone to fight it more wisely, rather than choosing to not fight it at all. After all, stimulating a 'manufacturing renaissance' is part of the Democratic platform. We have been pretty bad at explaining what that even means. But I would say that it does involve some trade warfare.

People might accuse me of sounding like Trump. But I think that the concept of a well conducted trade war is something that primarily came out of Democratic camps. I just don't trust Trump to conduct the war. Give me a president that I do trust to conduct a campaign of trade warfare wisely, and I am totally in.

I am afraid that 'anyone but Trump' is just going to make things worse by being an Anti-Trump. We'll make America worse again. Big Business won't mind a return to the status quo, which entailed a continuation of offshoring. We shouldn't be afraid of some of the battles that Trump is picking for us; we should just want better leadership to fight those battles.

My belief that people are basically good is sometimes crushed by the reality that people are basically bad
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15-09-2018, 08:52 AM
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
"Anything but trump" isn't new. It exists because of "anything but Obama".

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-09-2018, 09:01 AM
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
And Obama's amazingly lackadaisical handling of Hurricane Katrina. Thumbsup
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15-09-2018, 10:43 AM
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
Thanks, YK, for that well-articulated position.

I certainly agree that the Democratic Party would benefit from standing for something as they currently come across as Risk Managers rather than thought leaders. Bernie demonstrated that there is a market for the positive approach.

'Murika First' is an easy sell. So, why not?

Well, domestic policy, in this case, is the flip side of foreign policy... you're taking away our jurbs! Isn't there an inherent danger in protectionism/mercantilism? What would be the plan to mitigate the fall-out?

Unsure

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15-09-2018, 12:03 PM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2018 12:09 PM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
(15-09-2018 10:43 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I certainly agree that the Democratic Party would benefit from standing for something as they currently come across as Risk Managers rather than thought leaders.

Politics is easy to criticize and hard to do. Democrats have a reasonable platform of positions they are for: https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

For some reason, certain people keep saying we don't stand for anything discernable. Could this itself be politically motivated thinking? Or is it simply laziness?

If someone doesn't like the Democratic positions, they should vote for whoever represents positions they like. They should not, however, misrepresent Democrats. That just adds to the political polarization.
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15-09-2018, 12:31 PM
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
We need all the sermons we can get.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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15-09-2018, 01:17 PM
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
A Note From Outside the Knee Jerk Reaction Echo Chamber:

Stimulating a manufacturing renaissance is a Democratic Party major platform bullet point. It's a Democratic position. I like it. I don't know who the Democrats are who don't like it. I am not one of them.

Question From Outside the Kneed Jerk Reaction Echo Chamber:

If stimulating a manufacturing renaissance entails some trade warfare, will Democrats support it? Or will that be too Trumpian? Would we continue to say that stimulating a manufacturing renaissance is still part of the Democratic platform? Does the bullet point mean anything, if we are not willing to do what it takes to make it happen?

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15-09-2018, 01:22 PM
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
A manufacturing renaissance using robots - that would be super, we'd be on top gain. Quality products made cheap.

But - it would not help today's factory workers at all, they would keep losing jobs. It's not a remedy for that. They still need EDUCATION.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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15-09-2018, 01:31 PM
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
(15-09-2018 12:03 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(15-09-2018 10:43 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I certainly agree that the Democratic Party would benefit from standing for something as they currently come across as Risk Managers rather than thought leaders.

Politics is easy to criticize and hard to do. Democrats have a reasonable platform of positions they are for: https://www.democrats.org/party-platform
...

Yeah, that kinda proves my point.

From a marketing perspective, there are distinctions between the brand, the attention grabber (slogan / wow factor), the sales' pitch, the brochure and substance.

In terms of brand I hear "Republican Light" and that hasn't been working for them. Attempting to use identity politics as the wow factor ("I'm with her") has been a turn off.

The brochure (your link) is comprehensive but again, comes across as largely risk management (and resource management) and fails to sell the benefits. It reads as "we are...", "we will..." from the party perspective and misses the whole point of marketing which is... "you will get..."

(15-09-2018 12:03 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  ...
For some reason, certain people keep saying we don't stand for anything discernible. Could this itself be politically motivated thinking? Or is it simply laziness?
...

Both.

Obviously their opponents are politically motivated and will capitalise on anything to both promote their own brand and to belittle the competition.

There's laziness in that it's easier to pick a brand than to look at the substance. When potential voters are focused more on economic survival than social ideals... they're too busy to be not lazy (if that makes sense... it does when one thinks about it).

(15-09-2018 12:03 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  ...
If someone doesn't like the Democratic positions, they should vote for whoever represents positions they like. They should not, however, misrepresent Democrats. That just adds to the political polarization.

As mentioned in other posts, what happens when no party "represents positions they like"? Or when there is such a party but that party is perceived as having no clout (e.g. Greens).

It's currently like Manchester Utd. (the red party) and Manchester City (the blue party) own the rules of football ... there are many people who support other teams and more people who don't watch football.

It's a two-monarchy system ... Yorks vs. Lancasters; Starks vs. Lannisters; House Atreides vs. House Harkonnen; Montagues vs. Capulets.

For those who don't want either then it's "a plague on both their houses" and people won't vote.

It's a legitimate perspective to declare that non-club-members should not get invited to the AGM to vote on the rules and choose the leaders of the party (crown the king/queen) after all, non-club-members don't contribute in terms of money, time or effort. But when the parties are the only game in town they become de facto (despite no mention in the Constitution) intrinsic to the mechanism of democracy, for those who support the ideals of democracy there is no choice other to vote red or blue.

A marketing effort to promote something like Rank Choice Voting as a wow factor could entice some of the independents into the game. "Fuck off if you don't like our policies" is not an attractive sales' pitch.

Big Grin

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15-09-2018, 01:53 PM
RE: MAWA-- Make America Worse Again
(15-09-2018 01:31 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(15-09-2018 12:03 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Politics is easy to criticize and hard to do. Democrats have a reasonable platform of positions they are for: https://www.democrats.org/party-platform
...

Yeah, that kinda proves my point.

From a marketing perspective, there are distinctions between the brand, the attention grabber (slogan / wow factor), the sales' pitch, the brochure and substance.

In terms of brand I hear "Republican Light" and that hasn't been working for them. Attempting to use identity politics as the wow factor ("I'm with her") has been a turn off.

The brochure (your link) is comprehensive but again, comes across as largely risk management (and resource management) and fails to sell the benefits. It reads as "we are...", "we will..." from the party perspective and misses the whole point of marketing which is... "you will get..."

(15-09-2018 12:03 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  ...
For some reason, certain people keep saying we don't stand for anything discernible. Could this itself be politically motivated thinking? Or is it simply laziness?
...

Both.

Obviously their opponents are politically motivated and will capitalise on anything to both promote their own brand and to belittle the competition.

There's laziness in that it's easier to pick a brand than to look at the substance. When potential voters are focused more on economic survival than social ideals... they're too busy to be not lazy (if that makes sense... it does when one thinks about it).

(15-09-2018 12:03 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  ...
If someone doesn't like the Democratic positions, they should vote for whoever represents positions they like. They should not, however, misrepresent Democrats. That just adds to the political polarization.

As mentioned in other posts, what happens when no party "represents positions they like"? Or when there is such a party but that party is perceived as having no clout (e.g. Greens).

It's currently like Manchester Utd. (the red party) and Manchester City (the blue party) own the rules of football ... there are many people who support other teams and more people who don't watch football.

It's a two-monarchy system ... Yorks vs. Lancasters; Starks vs. Lannisters; House Atreides vs. House Harkonnen; Montagues vs. Capulets.

For those who don't want either then it's "a plague on both their houses" and people won't vote.

It's a legitimate perspective to declare that non-club-members should not get invited to the AGM to vote on the rules and choose the leaders of the party (crown the king/queen) after all, non-club-members don't contribute in terms of money, time or effort. But when the parties are the only game in town they become de facto (despite no mention in the Constitution) intrinsic to the mechanism of democracy, for those who support the ideals of democracy there is no choice other to vote red or blue.

A marketing effort to promote something like Rank Choice Voting as a wow factor could entice some of the independents into the game. "Fuck off if you don't like our policies" is not an attractive sales' pitch.

Big Grin

So you're saying you're really talking about marketing. Okay.
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