MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
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04-03-2015, 12:17 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 11:22 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 10:17 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  Where does the burden of proof fall when a person is making a claim that Moses might have existed and might have done what the holy books tell us. I don't believe my claim is positive but I do think it's logical as it admits that there are multiple possible truths.

'Might' is well and good and all but it is still an affirmative claim which still needs to be backed up as per the Onus; in order to make that statement the person has to be able to prove that the conditions in which the stipulated 'might' may have occurred to have actually happened: They would need to show that a man named Moses did indeed exist and that the Egyptians had enslaved an entire race (a la the Jews) and that the Exodus occurred, among a great many other details ascribed to the Moses stories.

[Edit: addition:] I also disagree with your belief that there are multiple possible truths. Multiple different states cannot all simultaneously be true, as they all would contradict each other.


I see what you are saying Brother and let me clarify that no multiple truths that oppose each other can exist. So I don't believe that Moses existed and did not and both are true that would be crazy to believe. What I mean by multiple truths is there is some evidence to suggest Moses did exist this it might be true that he did but also possible that he didn't. Both claims might be true one of them must be true yet both of them can't be true at the same time. I don't believe my claim is affirmative because I don't say Moses existed as a fact I claim it's possible Moses existed. Does anyone here honestly believe that there is an absolute 0 chance that he did? This claim that Moses possibly existed should not be something that is so disagreeable. There are many scriptures of different faiths as evidence for him existing not hard evidence but enough where we must admit it's possible there once was a Moses.
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04-03-2015, 12:22 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 11:28 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 06:50 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  No religion is not blind faith but a way of life long tested for generations so it has an abundance of knowledge which it draws from deep into the centuries. Thats why all faiths must be respected.

If religions followed the “Live and let live” rule then I wouldn’t care what people conjure up in their fantasies. But unfortunately the religious want others to believe what they believe and use political clout and violent means to achieve those ends.

Women should be covered from head to toe and are the property of men.
Creationism/ID should be taught alongside evolution.
Condoms should not be used even though millions are transmitting HIV.
Infidels should be killed.
Cartoonists must die because they drew your prophet.
Homosexuals are not to be granted the same rights or protection under the law.

No, I’m sorry MC, fuck faiths and religions. None get any respect from me as long as they don’t keep to themselves. Hope that makes my position clear.

BTW welcome to the Forum.
Thanks for the welcome. I see your point and it is not humble for the religious to claim that they know for sure and to shove their beliefs and rules down our throats. I believe in a secular society and find all the things you mentioned horrible. But those are acts of individuals in groups and the faiths themselves should not be held accountable.
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04-03-2015, 12:29 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 11:55 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 11:29 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  I feel like admitting I don't know something is an act that is enlightening because you accept your limitations and expend your perspective on the issue at hand.

I know there is much I don’t know. I don’t even know what I don’t know but collectively the human species knows much. Up to now, as far as I know, not once has the answer ever been “god”.

2+2=4, no god needed
The sun disappears from the sky = Earth rotates on it’s axis, no god needed
Lightning = electrical charges, no god needed
Lunar eclipse = Earth passes between sun and moon, no god needed
Species evolve through decent and environmental pressures = evolution, no god needed

In short, ”God is an ever receding pocket of ignorance” ~ N.D.Tyson

One doesn’t expand their perspective by saying “I don’t know”, but instead by observation, experimentation, trial and error and searching for the answer. Throwing your hands up and saying I’m enlightened because I don’t know this or that answer is a ridiculous, defeatist notion.

I see what you're saying and you make a strong point that I will need to digest for awhile.

I do not however agree with the last statement about admitting not knowing as defeatist I think it is healthy logical work to always be aware of your limitations especially when grappling with ultimate questions.
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04-03-2015, 12:42 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
I'm going to call it on night on here but I will check back in tomorrow morning before my next video shoot. If any of you like rap or hip hop you should check out my music search "MC Yo Wassup on google or youtube. I bet a lot of us can find a common ground there haha. I really enjoyed talking to everyone and had a lot of fun but this is new and a bit challenging so bare with me. See you all tomorrow.
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04-03-2015, 01:26 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(04-03-2015 12:29 AM)mcyowassup Wrote:  I do not however agree with the last statement about admitting not knowing as defeatist I think it is healthy logical work to always be aware of your limitations especially when grappling with ultimate questions.

Very true. Being aware of your limitations isn't bad. But the issue I have with most theists is that they're *not* aware that saying "We don't know X" does not mean you then have a pass to say "therefore God". The "therefore God" part is going beyond their limitations. It's not justifiable. One might as well say "therefore Cosmic Washing Machine".

Also, "we don't know" is very different to "we cannot know". *How* do people know that we cannot know? Another common trend among the religious is declaring very small, finite boundaries for knowledge, without any real reason given. And *that*, which I think is more what FC was referring to, *is* defeatist because if we cannot know, what's the point of trying?

On the other hand if we *don't* know, even if the possibility of finding answers is remote, one can still work towards knowledge via experiment etc. Some of these projects can probably occupy mankind for centuries - to *really* figure out what's going on with physics, biology etc. Our knowledge *is* small but we do have *some* and we know how to add to it Smile

The mystics tend to go with "We can't know, but God knows, so we *do* know, because God told us"... which is kinda horseshit...

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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04-03-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
Rap - A rhyming dictionary played through a popcorn popper......

I ain't impressed.

Learn how to sing. Develop a talent. Do something original.

...
Rap.....sheeesh...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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04-03-2015, 07:23 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 05:06 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  I am confused by what is an agnostic, atheist I thought they are different opposing beliefs.

I'm atheist in that I don't believe in any gods. I'm agnostic in that I don't believe one can prove whether or not any gods exist. I'm not making the positive claim that one or more gods exist (theism), and I'm not making the negative claim that they don't exist (strong/gnostic atheism).


(03-03-2015 05:17 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  I am not claiming I know that this "force/god" is the Abrahamic one it could be anything really and maybe as you say nothing at all but also yo can't disprove that there was not a moses and he did not talk to god through a burning bush etc. you were not there and it is in the realm of possibility and it is not blind faith that makes people believe it but 1000s of years of oral tradition that has shaped their lives and I think that needs to be something that is kept in that context and respected. Also I cant rule out zeus and athena Ill admit. Even though you were a bit rude at the end I love you bro and one day you to will learn to humbly admit when you dont know.

True, but without any evidence supporting that claim, why should I believe it or give it any credence? I can't prove that leprechauns don't exist, but should I allow the possibility of leprechauns to influence the decisions I make? There are an infinite number of things that could exist, but can't be proven. Trying to take them all into account is impossible and would lead to decision paralysis. Arbitrarily limiting the choice to just one or a few things is special pleading.

At the end of the day, no one has been able to prove that any of their god claims have any bearing on my life, apart from the actions taken by the believers themselves. It's not something I'm going to waste my time on considering when it comes to making decisions.
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04-03-2015, 07:23 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2015 07:41 AM by Rahn127.)
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 11:57 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 11:38 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  It's not enlightened, it's honest.
Enlightened is when you study the subject and learn something new and then keep studying and keep learning.

A child is not enlightened by what he doesn't know.
He is simply ignorant

Look up the definition of ignorant before you complain about it.

I find it very likely that you don't know what the word means.

As far as I understand ignorant means to lack knowledge in a subject.

As far as what you said goes I do not think every time someone studies something they come closer to understanding reality because learning basically means identifying patterns and associating patterns with rules but as you do this and gain confidence in an understanding that you built on the subject you allow for less and less other possibilities and thus narrow how many perspectives you can understand that subject from and instead you end up with one ultimate perspective. On the other hand if you do not study a subject the perspectives you can have on it are limitless as you don't have prior bias and thus in one of those perspectives lies the truth. However the person who studied and studied and narrowed the perspectives he can see the subject from he may have the truth but he also may have ended up able only to see the lie he reinforced. Isaac Newton discovered gravity by observing and studying why objects fall and he came to the conclusion that a force called gravity causes the objects to fall and it's seems like he is right but science often reforms and adds and changes it's theories and I am sure in a thousand years our understanding of gravity will be radically different from now, when Newton's theory is proven wrong or falls short of reality people would see that he was not right in the belief he held. If we however lived in an alternative history where Newton sat under the tree and an apple fell on his head and he admitted that something much more complex was happening in the universe than he can ever comprehend and he simply experienced it instead of trying to put it in a box and label it he would never ever be on the wrong side of reality.

Your alternative history doesn't contain calculus or algebra or modern medicine. Nor does it contain computers or houses or huts. It doesn't contain language or music.

We must be able to differentiate between different things and in turn label those different things. We have to create definitions and then communicate those definitions to others.

As our forms of communication grew, we learned to write and store that information so we could more easily pass it along to others.

I happen to love music. R&B, hip hop, rap are among my favorites, but I have only ever experienced listening to music. I don't play any instruments. I can't read music and if someone played a note on a keyboard, I couldn't tell you if it was an A or B. I haven't studied music. I've only experienced it through a very narrow lens, my ears.

If someone played a note and I insisted that it was an A when in reality it was an F, who is more in tune with reality, the guy (me) who only experiences music or a musician who has been playing his whole life who can provide me with evidence that the note played, is in fact an F.

The truth of reality isn't an opinion

On a side note, let's start with my first taste of rap.
Sugar Hill Gang, Grandmaster Flash and the furious five
Eric B & Rakim, Eazy-E
MC Lyte, Lil Kim, Foxy Brown

More recently I like Eminem, Lady Sovereign (from the UK) and Siya.

Too many to name. All good music in my opinion.

Lastly, science isn't a consensus of an opinion.
If you can factually show that something is true and back it with evidence then we accept the truth of it until new evidence can be presented that refines our previous knowledge on the subject.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-03-2015, 07:33 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
I just watched the video.
This whole time, I was taking you seriously.

My bad.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-03-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 11:57 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  As far as what you said goes I do not think every time someone studies something they come closer to understanding reality because learning basically means identifying patterns and associating patterns with rules but as you do this and gain confidence in an understanding that you built on the subject you allow for less and less other possibilities and thus narrow how many perspectives you can understand that subject from and instead you end up with one ultimate perspective.

Narrowing in on what is correct is a good thing.

Quote:On the other hand if you do not study a subject the perspectives you can have on it are limitless as you don't have prior bias and thus in one of those perspectives lies the truth.

You mean that you value ignorance. You'd rather let emotions let you guess at why things are the way they are than actually learn anything. That's not a path to truth, it's just a way to a fantasy land. I prefer reality.

Quote: However the person who studied and studied and narrowed the perspectives he can see the subject from he may have the truth but he also may have ended up able only to see the lie he reinforced. Isaac Newton discovered gravity by observing and studying why objects fall and he came to the conclusion that a force called gravity causes the objects to fall and it's seems like he is right but science often reforms and adds and changes it's theories and I am sure in a thousand years our understanding of gravity will be radically different from now, when Newton's theory is proven wrong or falls short of reality people would see that he was not right in the belief he held.

Newton's theory has already been superseded by Einstein. That's a good thing. Newton provided a better understanding for gravity than humans had before his work and that moved us forward. Einstein took it a step further. Newton's principles are still used in everyday life because they work; Einstein's are used in more extreme circumstances because they work. Newton's conclusions weren't wrong, they were a better approximation of reality than we had before but they could be improved on.

You don't understand what science does or what it claims. Science holds to your "I don't know" ideal but adds "let's see if we can figure it out". It is a constant effort to get closer to understanding the universe. It is a beautiful endeavor, especially compared to your apparent goal of embracing ignorance and not trying to learn.

Quote: If we however lived in an alternative history where Newton sat under the tree and an apple fell on his head and he admitted that something much more complex was happening in the universe than he can ever comprehend and he simply experienced it instead of trying to put it in a box and label it he would never ever be on the wrong side of reality.

He wasn't on the wrong side of reality. He advanced our understanding immensely. You are more than welcome to go sit under a tree and do nothing but marvel at how much you don't understand. Let those who want to do that but also want to try to figure out some small part of it do so. You'll get the benefits without having to think which appears to be your goal.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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