MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
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03-03-2015, 09:29 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:15 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 07:48 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  It was only most likely d[ue] to god because of the complexity of it all

How in the world can you judge the probability of it being a god with no actual examples of a god doing anything?

Now you understand my point when I say that it is, in fact, intellectually honest when I state as a positive claim, "God does not exist."

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03-03-2015, 09:35 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 08:29 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 08:06 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Welcome to the forum. Smile

I'll try to explain from another approach.

There's a difference between knowledge of, and belief in. As far as the knowledge of god's existence or nonexistence is concerned, we're all agnostic, yourself included. The difference between theists and atheists - theists believe that a god exists, while atheists lack that belief. It's not complicated at all.

That said, I think this is an attempt to 'level the playing field' between atheists and theists, putting blind faith on the same par with sound reasoning and critical thinking. As I said, they're completely different things.

So, forget about knowledge. Why do you believe there is a god? Inquiring minds want to know. Drinking Beverage

Thanks for the warm welcome. I just feel that the Universe is so complex and so mysterious yet acts in way which cant be random and could come together by happen stance so there must be a force making it happen.... probably

So, because the universe acts in a predictable way, we can glean that it is controlled by basic laws of nature. These laws have not been observed to change, and no event has been shown to be the result of anything other than natural law; in other words, nothing supernatural has been provably observed.

A god that performs miracles is a god that acts upon and from above natural laws; a supernatural power. These interactions, if observed, would manifest as unexpected and fundamentally unnatural movements, appearances, regrown limbs, etc. Since miracles and supernatural occurrences have not been proven to happen, it seems more likely that if god exists at all, he interacts with the universe in natural ways, or not at all. There is also the possibility that he CAN act beyond natural law, but has an aversion to it being observed (ridiculous, I know..); in which case, as we observe and record more and more of EVERYTHING every single day, there will be less places for a miracle to happen. But god won't need to sneak in miracles, because he's omniscient and has known exactly what will happen since before he made the universe exactly as he wanted... So don't wait for miracles, your child was meant to lose all their limbs. God set this universe up with the exact laws that would bring every event that has ever and will ever happen, and he knew they would happen.

So far you have only proposed that god may have setup and created the universe... and that he had enough foresight to see that you'll enjoy rainbows and sunsets and other interactions of light and matter; you propose that he had intention and consideration of humans (the animals which enjoy rainbows and such) when designing the universe. And yet, we see such tragedy.. The universe is not as finely tuned as you likely believe it to be. Likewise, the earth was not tuned for us, but through evolution, we are tuned for it. A hypothetical being that lives on the methane seas of Saturn's moon Titan, will have a similar impression. Being a product of its environment, it might look at Earth and say "Entirely too hot, seas have all gassed away, and the rocks have liquified!"

You see, while we aren't sure WHY the laws of nature allow for life, we know that if they didn't allow for it, nobody would exist to even ask the question. There are plenty of theories as to how the universe came to be. A being that designed the beautiful, flawed cosmos we call home, could be well beyond our comprehension. However, it could also, like I said before, be some drone that just flipped a switch and has no real power within its own home.

Since I see no evidence of intention in all that vast space beyond our little corner of the solar system, I find other theories to hold more weight. For example:

If a multiverse (parallel universes) exists, as IS suggested by a few fields of physics, the first moments of the cosmos could have spawned a plethora of universes with varying laws of physics. Ours is one of those. One that can sustain life. Many will be inhospitable, impossible places for life to form. Others may have physics that are so different that we could not exist there, but other fundamentally different forms of consciousness have emerged. While this is speculative, it already has more weight to it, and IMO, more beauty too.
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03-03-2015, 09:44 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:29 PM)Free Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 09:15 PM)unfogged Wrote:  How in the world can you judge the probability of it being a god with no actual examples of a god doing anything?

Now you understand my point when I say that it is, in fact, intellectually honest when I state as a positive claim, "God does not exist."

Thumbsup

No, I actually don't. I've read your arguments; I just don't agree with your conclusions.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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03-03-2015, 09:49 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:15 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 07:48 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  It was only most likely d[ue] to god because of the complexity of it all

How in the world can you judge the probability of it being a god with no actual examples of a god doing anything?

Good point because all our logic does not apply in theology I can't give you an answer that can make sense outside of assumption.
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03-03-2015, 09:50 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:44 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 09:29 PM)Free Wrote:  Now you understand my point when I say that it is, in fact, intellectually honest when I state as a positive claim, "God does not exist."

Thumbsup

No, I actually don't. I've read your arguments; I just don't agree with your conclusions.

You don't? My conclusion is I don't know ... Do you know?
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03-03-2015, 09:56 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:50 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 09:44 PM)unfogged Wrote:  No, I actually don't. I've read your arguments; I just don't agree with your conclusions.

You don't? My conclusion is I don't know ... Do you know?

Define god.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-03-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:50 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 09:44 PM)unfogged Wrote:  No, I actually don't. I've read your arguments; I just don't agree with your conclusions.

You don't? My conclusion is I don't know ... Do you know?

He wasn't responding to you...

Lol you aren't the only one who gets disagreeance
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03-03-2015, 10:01 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
Let's take a look at just our little piece of the Universe, Earth.
I notice many times people make the mistake of thinking that it's miraculous that the Earth formed so perfectly to support us and all the other life here.
That seems to be your take on it.
Life here formed the way it did because this is the only environment there was.
You don't give random chance enough credit.
Change the orbit of the Earth slightly and chances are, we never happen.
I think if there were a creator it would make life on every planet.
Why make them otherwise?
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03-03-2015, 10:08 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:35 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 08:29 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  Thanks for the warm welcome. I just feel that the Universe is so complex and so mysterious yet acts in way which cant be random and could come together by happen stance so there must be a force making it happen.... probably

So, because the universe acts in a predictable way, we can glean that it is controlled by basic laws of nature. These laws have not been observed to change, and no event has been shown to be the result of anything other than natural law; in other words, nothing supernatural has been provably observed.

A god that performs miracles is a god that acts upon and from above natural laws; a supernatural power. These interactions, if observed, would manifest as unexpected and fundamentally unnatural movements, appearances, regrown limbs, etc. Since miracles and supernatural occurrences have not been proven to happen, it seems more likely that if god exists at all, he interacts with the universe in natural ways, or not at all. There is also the possibility that he CAN act beyond natural law, but has an aversion to it being observed (ridiculous, I know..); in which case, as we observe and record more and more of EVERYTHING every single day, there will be less places for a miracle to happen. But god won't need to sneak in miracles, because he's omniscient and has known exactly what will happen since before he made the universe exactly as he wanted... So don't wait for miracles, your child was meant to lose all their limbs. God set this universe up with the exact laws that would bring every event that has ever and will ever happen, and he knew they would happen.

So far you have only proposed that god may have setup and created the universe... and that he had enough foresight to see that you'll enjoy rainbows and sunsets and other interactions of light and matter; you propose that he had intention and consideration of humans (the animals which enjoy rainbows and such) when designing the universe. And yet, we see such tragedy.. The universe is not as finely tuned as you likely believe it to be. Likewise, the earth was not tuned for us, but through evolution, we are tuned for it. A hypothetical being that lives on the methane seas of Saturn's moon Titan, will have a similar impression. Being a product of its environment, it might look at Earth and say "Entirely too hot, seas have all gassed away, and the rocks have liquified!"

You see, while we aren't sure WHY the laws of nature allow for life, we know that if they didn't allow for it, nobody would exist to even ask the question. There are plenty of theories as to how the universe came to be. A being that designed the beautiful, flawed cosmos we call home, could be well beyond our comprehension. However, it could also, like I said before, be some drone that just flipped a switch and has no real power within its own home.

Since I see no evidence of intention in all that vast space beyond our little corner of the solar system, I find other theories to hold more weight. For example:

If a multiverse (parallel universes) exists, as IS suggested by a few fields of physics, the first moments of the cosmos could have spawned a plethora of universes with varying laws of physics. Ours is one of those. One that can sustain life. Many will be inhospitable, impossible places for life to form. Others may have physics that are so different that we could not exist there, but other fundamentally different forms of consciousness have emerged. While this is speculative, it already has more weight to it, and IMO, more beauty too.

Thanks for taking the time to write this I will have to make several replies so I can try to address all your points.

Miracles would be things that defy natural laws and no I don't know off any miracles that were proven but at the same time while idk if events that defy the laws happen I assume that if they did you would not be able to explain them using the defied laws so investigation would likely be fruitless. Further more I feel(not to be confused with know) that the universe which birthed humanity is a miracle that defies logic and is for now something that our laws and theories cannot conclusively understand.

Idk if the force that is responsible for this reality is good or bad organic or machine real or fake I don't try to understand it. Idk if it interacts with reality or not and idk if it is all powerful or if it's flawed. Many religions claim the higher power is unchanging and our creator the laws of nature seem unchanging and most including me believe are largely responsible for us ending up as we are so perhaps the laws are god or part of god perhaps not ... Who knows
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03-03-2015, 10:11 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
If all this is about knowing what we don't know then you can't make an argument that god is more probable because you feel like it is. Feeling is not knowing. I'm not entirely convinced you're following your own rule.

That said there is plenty of stuff I DO know and it's enough that it makes me comfortable saying "there is no god" in the same way that I am saying "there is no Easter bunny" and "there is no Santa Claus." No one get's overly worked up about my "gnosticism" towards other, thus far, fictional characters. *shrug* That said though, I've got absolutely no problem admitting I'm wrong if people can provide me clear, testable, demonstrable, and falsifiable evidence for the Easter Bunny. Same with god.
As far as I'm concerned until a thing is demonstrated to exist it's irrational and unwise to accept that it does, and even worse to build your whole life around it.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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