MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
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03-03-2015, 10:15 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:44 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 09:29 PM)Free Wrote:  Now you understand my point when I say that it is, in fact, intellectually honest when I state as a positive claim, "God does not exist."

Thumbsup

No, I actually don't. I've read your arguments; I just don't agree with your conclusions.

I find that rather odd since my conclusions are based upon the very same thing you said to MC.

Consider

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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03-03-2015, 10:17 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 06:10 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 05:17 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  I am not claiming I know that this "force/god" is the Abrahamic one it could be anything really and maybe as you say nothing at all but also yo can't disprove that there was not a moses and he did not talk to god through a burning bush etc. you were not there and it is in the realm of possibility and it is not blind faith that makes people believe it but 1000s of years of oral tradition that has shaped their lives and I think that needs to be something that is kept in that context and respected. Also I cant rule out zeus and athena Ill admit. Even though you were a bit rude at the end I love you bro and one day you to will learn to humbly admit when you dont know.

Okay, first of all, I think we may need to do some clarification on the burden of proof. In short, it dictates that the Onus rests on those who are making the affirmative claim; those who claim the existence of biblical characters a la Moses, Noah and whomever else are the ones who must meet the burden.
Those on the negative side are required only to answer to the presented evidence: it is not the job of the negative party (or anybody for that matter) to prove the negative itself, merely to establish the lack of sufficient evidence for the affirmative claim.

That said, the evidence for characters like Moses is at best comprised of circumstantial connections and at worst flimsy, biblically based assertion. I'm sure I need not tell you why that last one is so flimsy.
I write this with the disclaimer that I'm not a historian or archaeologist and am just passing on what I've been made aware of.

To continue, there is a considerable lack of evidence for many of the tales surrounding central characters as well, on with Moses; we can be sure the Exodus, for instance, didn't happen due to the total lack of any evidence for the event. Much the same can be said of things like Noah's flood which certainly didn't happen as purported either, and for the biblical narrative of creation, which is known is wrong due to it being contradicted by modern findings in evolutionary chronology and the basic laws of physics, not to mention internal contradictions in the tale itself.

You're right in that 'we weren't there', but through evidence that was left behind and from the accounts of those at the time, we can reasonably establish the reality of things.

Where does the burden of proof fall when a person is making a claim that Moses might have existed and might have done what the holy books tell us. I don't believe my claim is positive but I do think it's logical as it admits that there are multiple possible truths.
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03-03-2015, 10:19 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 10:15 PM)Free Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 09:44 PM)unfogged Wrote:  No, I actually don't. I've read your arguments; I just don't agree with your conclusions.

I find that rather odd since my conclusions are based upon the very same thing you said to MC.

Consider

Sorry this forum is a little confusing this all knew to me.
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03-03-2015, 10:21 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 09:50 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 09:44 PM)unfogged Wrote:  No, I actually don't. I've read your arguments; I just don't agree with your conclusions.

You don't? My conclusion is I don't know ... Do you know?

I was saying to Free that I don't agree with his conclusion that it is reasonable to claim that no gods exist. That's based on previous threads where he presented his arguments for that.

I agree that "I don't know" is a reasonable position to hold. I don't agree that it is reasonable to believe that it is likely that god exists despite admitting that you don't know. You said yourself that it is just an assumption. That's not enough for me to base a belief on.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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03-03-2015, 10:25 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 10:15 PM)Free Wrote:  I find that rather odd since my conclusions are based upon the very same thing you said to MC.

I have no basis for determining a probability that god exists. That includes determining that the probability is zero.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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03-03-2015, 10:30 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
Just an interesting factoid; rainbows occur on other planets as well as moons with adequate atmospheres (like Titan).

(03-03-2015 10:08 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  Miracles would be things that defy natural laws and no I don't know off any miracles that were proven but at the same time while idk if events that defy the laws happen I assume that if they did you would not be able to explain them using the defied laws so investigation would likely be fruitless.

Right, they might not match up with what we know about natural law... But so far, things DO match up. Even the unexpected always seem to happen within the realm of natural cause once it has been investigated. Do you know of any unexplained events that might have been miracles?

Quote:...Many religions claim the higher power is unchanging and our creator the laws of nature seem unchanging and most including me believe are largely responsible for us ending up as we are so perhaps the laws are god or part of god perhaps not ... Who knows

If the laws of nature ARE god, then he MUST act in the way that those laws dictate. If those laws(god) are unchanging, and govern all movement and occurrence in the cosmos, then god cannot have intentions or make decisions. In such a case, we've basically just renamed the laws of nature to "god", much as Einstein did when he is so frequently misconstrued.
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03-03-2015, 10:33 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 10:25 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 10:15 PM)Free Wrote:  I find that rather odd since my conclusions are based upon the very same thing you said to MC.

I have no basis for determining a probability that god exists. That includes determining that the probability is zero.

With no basis either way, how then could there be any possibility?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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03-03-2015, 10:34 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 10:19 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 10:15 PM)Free Wrote:  I find that rather odd since my conclusions are based upon the very same thing you said to MC.

Consider

Sorry this forum is a little confusing this all knew to me.

Just open your mind. You are smarter than you realize. We see it, so trust us.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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03-03-2015, 10:34 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 08:24 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Day 1 is always the toughest. You have a lot of information being thrown at you and most of it you're probably reading for the first time.

It's going to be a long and hard road, but it's an honest road. It points toward the truth or close as we can get.

Hope you stay long enough to learn all that you didn't know yesterday. And remember tomorrow is only day 2.

I honestly figured that see eye to eye with my perspective but ye it'll be tough to get everyone to humbly admit that they can't know everything.
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03-03-2015, 10:38 PM
RE: MC Yo Wassup VS Atheism
(03-03-2015 10:17 PM)mcyowassup Wrote:  Where does the burden of proof fall when a person is making a claim that Moses might have existed and might have done what the holy books tell us. I don't believe my claim is positive

The idea that there was some actual person that some of the stories are based on isn't totally unwarranted but claiming only that he "might" have existed seems rather pointless.

You also have to look at the fact that many of the elements of the story parallel other, earlier myths (read about Sargon for a start). Could an actual person have done things that appeared in other myths? yes. Does it open up the possibility that Moses is actually just another myth or at least that the story has been embellished? definitely.

Beyond that, things like the plagues and the passover would be expected to be mentioned in other records. They aren't. If all those Israelites wandered for 40 years they would leave traces and there would be records from others. There is nothing. It just makes much more sense to think that any kernel of truth in the story is so buried as to be meaningless.

The story of Moses may be loosely based on an actual set of events but the story as told is simply not plausible.

Quote:but I do think it's logical as it admits that there are multiple possible truths.

I have no idea what that means.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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