Macron has won election
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08-05-2017, 03:46 PM
RE: Macron has won election
(08-05-2017 01:53 PM)Sturm Wrote:  Even though Macron won with a large majority, the fact that Marine Le Pen got 34% of the votes is still worrying. In 2002, only 20% voted for the FN at the second round of the election, that's a 14% progression in 15 years, the far right is getting more and more popular.

There's the year 2008 and it's still ongoing ramifications to consider. In 2002 a larger part of the population was still well off and could hope for their children to do better. Today that's not the case, which always created a fertile soil for demagogues.

In some fashion you can compare it to the German elections of 1928 and 1932. In '28 the NSDAP won 2 percent in the general elections. In '32 they were up to 32 percent. In between was the year of '29 and the ensuing depression.

One can observe that the populous rightwing parties saw a surge after 2008 all over Europe. People are fed up with establishment politics. And rightfully so. They only draw the wrong conclusions by hoping that the ones bawling the loudest would solve their problems.

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08-05-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: Macron has won election
(08-05-2017 02:50 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-05-2017 12:26 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  After WWII the right wing/fascist movement was always quite prominent in France, it just became more apparent right now. There is a reason Le Pens dad was so well known before she took over.

Before WWII it too wasn't fringe if I correctly recall P. Burrin "Fascisme, nazisme, autoritarisme".

Reading Shirer's The Third Republic, I got the distinct impression that French fascism was rather strong, and that the dissension in the country between the right, the moderates, and the left contributed to the country's defeat in 1940, as those same schisms showed up in the army as well.
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08-05-2017, 11:47 PM
RE: Macron has won election
(08-05-2017 02:50 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-05-2017 12:26 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  After WWII the right wing/fascist movement was always quite prominent in France, it just became more apparent right now. There is a reason Le Pens dad was so well known before she took over.

Before WWII it too wasn't fringe if I correctly recall P. Burrin "Fascisme, nazisme, autoritarisme".

Same for antisemitism, which went along with fascism. Just look at the Dreyfus Affair.

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09-05-2017, 01:21 AM
RE: Macron has won election
(08-05-2017 06:14 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Reading Shirer's The Third Republic, I got the distinct impression that French fascism was rather strong, and that the dissension in the country between the right, the moderates, and the left contributed to the country's defeat in 1940, as those same schisms showed up in the army as well.

I can't see them contributing to the defeat. That was purely down to inept leadership. Generals who still thought in terms of 1918 instead of adapting to new strategies.

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09-05-2017, 02:26 AM
RE: Macron has won election
(09-05-2017 01:21 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(08-05-2017 06:14 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Reading Shirer's The Third Republic, I got the distinct impression that French fascism was rather strong, and that the dissension in the country between the right, the moderates, and the left contributed to the country's defeat in 1940, as those same schisms showed up in the army as well.

I can't see them contributing to the defeat. That was purely down to inept leadership. Generals who still thought in terms of 1918 instead of adapting to new strategies.

But it can explain the authoritarian remainder state after the surrender 1940, cooperating with Germany, lead by Petain, a General who was a war hero fighting against the germans in WWI? Blink

Btw, how was the state of the french society in between WWI and WWII, in terms of being united or divided? Tbh, i dont know much about it.
What i know is how surpirsed i was when i read about the transformation of inter-war Japan. That was... thrilling.

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09-05-2017, 02:45 AM
RE: Macron has won election
(09-05-2017 02:26 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  But it can explain the authoritarian remainder state after the surrender 1940, cooperating with Germany, lead by Petain, a General who was a war hero fighting against the germans in WWI? Blink

Well, Pierre Laval sticks out. But only because he started out as a socialist and pacifist. Same could be said about Mussolini, by the way, who graduated from anarchist to socialist to fascist.

Laval moved to the right, long before the war started. He was in staunch opposition to the front Populaire of Leon Blum and already had joined Petain before the war. As for the French political system at the time of WWI, there's a saying it was an empire without an emperor. I tend to agree.

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09-05-2017, 06:20 AM
RE: Macron has won election
Just saw this, made me giggle

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09-05-2017, 07:13 AM
RE: Macron has won election
(09-05-2017 01:21 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(08-05-2017 06:14 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Reading Shirer's The Third Republic, I got the distinct impression that French fascism was rather strong, and that the dissension in the country between the right, the moderates, and the left contributed to the country's defeat in 1940, as those same schisms showed up in the army as well.

I can't see them contributing to the defeat. That was purely down to inept leadership. Generals who still thought in terms of 1918 instead of adapting to new strategies.

Of course that was the primary reason why.
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09-05-2017, 10:54 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2017 10:58 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Macron has won election
(09-05-2017 02:26 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Btw, how was the state of the french society in between WWI and WWII, in terms of being united or divided? Tbh, i dont know much about it.

From what little I know France was pretty divided - communism was making quite serious inroads there if I recall correctly. You can find more info in Burrin book I mentioned earlier and there is possibility that Raymond Aron wrote something about it in his "Opium of the Intellectuals".
You also may find something in Furet "The Passing of an Illusion

THE IDEA OF COMMUNISM IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY".

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-05-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: Macron has won election
(09-05-2017 10:54 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  From what little I know France was pretty divided - communism was making quite serious inroads there if I recall correctly. You can find more info in Burrin book I mentioned earlier and there is possibility that Raymond Aron wrote something about it in his "Opium of the Intellectuals".
You also may found something in Furet Communism.

That's pretty much the same political picture every country back then showed. A division between the extreme left and right. Led to a short cvil war in Austria in 1934 and to riots in France, ironically at the same day. February 12th.

In France, the left, after much strive, founded a common platform, which led to the front populaire leading the country in the years following 1936. It was led by Leon Blum, a socialist and iconic figure of the French left.

In Spain the Civil war started the very same year. Also a confrontation between left and right.

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