Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
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09-06-2011, 03:43 PM
Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
So let's say that we have discovered that the God of Abraham exists and that the Bible is completely true. Let's say that the moon shifted over and God's face was behind it and he went "oh shit!" and ran away, but not before we saw his nametag that said "Hi, My Name Is: Jehovah" on the lapel of his blazer.

But anyways, somehow we proved that the Judeo-Christian God exists and the Bible is actually the word and history of God, thereby verifying the existence of Satan, Hell, Heaven, and sin.

Now that God and Satan are real, we can begin to analyze them morally. So first, let's consider two "unknown" deities?

Deity One


Created Hell, came up with arbitrary rules to send mankind to Hell
Hates babies
Hates children
Hates women
Hates foreigners
Killed billions of people
Teaches discrimination and ignorance
Narcissistic and demands you grovel before his mightiness or burn
Allows bad things to happen to faithful followers and children
Sends natural disasters to periodically destroy his children
Embarked on a global smear campaign to besmirch Deity Two's reputation
Delights in animal sacrifices and blood rituals


Deity Two

Endorses masturbation, sex, drugs, heavy metal, gluttony, etc. All of which bring pleasure and are human nature, while Deity One denies us earthly pleasures for no reason
Killed ten people, but only after getting Deity One's permission (Job's children)
Rebelled against Deity One after seeing the malevolent nature of his ways
Leaves people to live their lives however they want without judgement


Looking at the two deities with no prior knowledge, one would conclude that Deity Two (Satan) is morally superior to Deity One (God).


The only information we have on Satan is from the Bible, the word of God, so of course it's going to say that he's an evil being and that Hell is a place of torture. But just step back and look at the evidence. Satan doesn't demand worship or take a personal interest in your moral choices. He wants you to get as much pleasure out of life as possible. Plus people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell will inhabit this "heaven" place, while the free thinkers and geniuses of the world inhabit this "hell." Just being around evangelists would be eternal torture for me, so I choose to hang out with the geniuses, whether I'm roasting or not.


I'm not preaching Satanism here, this is all just a observational exercise

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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09-06-2011, 04:58 PM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
I'm gunna' start worshipping old Lucifer.
But seriously, God is an arsehole.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing". "But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED." "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
-DA
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10-06-2011, 02:47 AM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
Did you know that the word "satan" literally means "adversary" in Hebrew and that it is probably not a name at all? You are free to choose as you please, but you might want to read a little more carefully if you don't want an unpleasant surprise.

He was part of my dream, of course--but then I was part of his dream, too!
--Alice
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10-06-2011, 04:18 AM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
The fallacy in deity postulated morality is that the deity itself is not part of the group that has to preform the moral rules.

Imagine a person who has to write rules for e.g. a tennis tournament without him ever having touched a racket or seen a tennismatch.
He can do two things

  1. Make up stuff
  2. Contact another person who knows what he talks about

In the first case, he can postulate the rule of playing tennis with a baseball. Confused
In the second case, the rules are not made by him but by the pundit he contacts. Or worse listen to the pundit AND make stuff up. Undecided

The problem with a deity given morality is that there is no opening for the second case since an almighty can not turn to a pundit. So the first rule MUST apply. The common answer is that God by nature knows what's best thereby bypassing the baseball-for-a-tennis-match problem. God knows by nature that that doesn't make sense. BUT... That does not really answer the question on HOW the deity knows what was best without
  • having to make up rules in advance
  • knowing what will happen in advance and thereby disabling free will of the tennis players
  • pushing the question in infinite regress
Thereby creating more problems the there where before.

You can't attribute moral codes postulation to "Individuals" (even with capitals) who don't participate to the society they apply them on without running into problems

Layman's explanation on the euthyphro dilemma
This is one of my favourite theistic problems because it was the first time I saw that you don't need to be really sure about stuff like big-bang, origins, or divine plan to see the fallacies of religious dogma. Simple logic suffices Wink

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-06-2011, 08:11 AM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
You know, I watching Family Guy's parody for Star Wars 4 last night, and something occurred to me about the Ewoks. They have no idea who they are helping. They are a primitive race simply following the being that came to them first. But they worshiped them like Gods. It could have just as easily been the Empire that came by and became their gods.

Presuming that all this stuff is right, then we have no idea who is really the good or bad guys. We are just some little primitive people that probably started worshiping the first being we came by. Might be the Jedis, might be the Empire. Hell if we know.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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10-06-2011, 10:29 AM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
Quote:Deity Two

Endorses masturbation, sex, drugs, heavy metal, gluttony, etc. All of which bring pleasure and are human nature, while Deity One denies us earthly pleasures for no reason
Killed ten people, but only after getting Deity One's permission (Job's children)
Rebelled against Deity One after seeing the malevolent nature of his ways
Leaves people to live their lives however they want without judgement

According to christian mythology, Satan does one other important thing: Convincing people to sin. IT can be having premarital sex or killing a man. He's almost as evil as God.

..."we can be truly free - not because we can rebel against the the tyranny of the selfish replicators but because we know that there is no one to rebel."
Susan Blackmore : The Meme Machine
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10-06-2011, 11:36 AM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
(10-06-2011 02:47 AM)pilgrim Wrote:  Did you know that the word "satan" literally means "adversary" in Hebrew and that it is probably not a name at all? You are free to choose as you please, but you might want to read a little more carefully if you don't want an unpleasant surprise.


Yeah, but I thought he was no longer Lucifer after he was cast out of the angels (local ska band he was in). And Beelzebub just sounds stupid. So we've either got to call him Frank or Satan.


(10-06-2011 10:29 AM)TheSelfishGene Wrote:  According to christian mythology, Satan does one other important thing: Convincing people to sin. IT can be having premarital sex or killing a man. He's almost as evil as God.


According to CHRISTIAN mythology, I'm sure he is as evil as God. And according to Republicans, Obama was born in Kenya. If we discard the dogmas and stigmas set in place by Christians, Satan doesn't come off as the immoral one. When I said earlier that "the Bible is true" I just meant that it actually was the word of God, not that the words in it are necessarily accurate.

But if you look at both deities, how come "the evil one who convinces you to kill" only killed ten people with the blessing of the Lord, and the one who put out the commandment not to kill... kills billions and frequently commands others to kill "in his name"? I think we've been tricked by this Lord character into immediately regarding Satan as the "evil one" and then when that wasn't working, he set the earth up to appear scientifically explainable, then disappeared, promoting the growth of atheism. If He couldn't have us, nobody could.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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10-06-2011, 12:19 PM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
(10-06-2011 08:11 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  Presuming that all this stuff is right, then we have no idea who is really the good or bad guys. We are just some little primitive people that probably started worshiping the first being we came by. Might be the Jedis, might be the Empire. Hell if we know.
That's pretty good stuff Ashley. What if the devil wrote the bible Smile

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10-06-2011, 01:06 PM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
The devil does not convince one to commit sins he simply gives you all of the options on the table. He would be more like a pack of cigarettes on a table and a cute cuddly teddy bear waiting for a hug, when you feel like you want to do something unhealthy but can't quite put your finger on it.

Oh and I'm down if we're all abandoning atheism in favor of satanism, I'm pretty big on joining large groups of people whether I believe the same things or not just so I can be popular. But if we're not then whatev.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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13-06-2011, 06:43 PM
RE: Malevolent God; a moral deconstruction
I see it as history being written by the victors. If the Bible story were true, then Yahweh won and cast Satan as the evil one in history. If that's the case, then Satan is the forefather of some Holy resistance against Yahweh's oppressive regime.

Which brings up an interesting point, if Satan is Yahweh's adversary, wouldn't his book be filled with lessons in opposition to the Bible? That means no genocide, women aren't subordinate to men, no scape goats, no blood sacrifices, and no "tests of faith".

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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