Man Made Global Warming
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21-11-2011, 07:24 PM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
Niceness from the bearded dude.

There could be underlying pattern in these cyclic trends of evolution as a sort of holistic fitness test for Gaia. From your data the concern becomes "tipping point" from deterministic chaos; that the rate could hit a mark, after which a cascade effect would ripple through the ecology with a resultant of - we fucked.

More food for thought.

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22-11-2011, 07:10 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
You keep bringing up volcanoes, so I thought I would post some facts concerning it.


http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/climate.php

"Do the Earth’s volcanoes emit more CO2 than human activities? Research findings indicate that the answer to this frequently asked question is a clear and unequivocal, “No.” Human activities, responsible for a projected 35 billion metric tons (gigatons) of CO2 emissions in 2010 (Friedlingstein et al., 2010), release an amount of CO2 that dwarfs the annual CO2 emissions of all the world’s degassing subaerial and submarine volcanoes (Gerlach, 2011).

The published estimates of the global CO2 emission rate for all degassing subaerial (on land) and submarine volcanoes lie in a range from 0.13 gigaton to 0.44 gigaton per year (Gerlach, 1991; Varekamp et al., 1992; Allard, 1992; Sano and Williams, 1996; Marty and Tolstikhin, 1998). The preferred global estimates of the authors of these studies range from about 0.15 to 0.26 gigaton per year. The 35-gigaton projected anthropogenic CO2 emission for 2010 is about 80 to 270 times larger than the respective maximum and minimum annual global volcanic CO2 emission estimates. It is 135 times larger than the highest preferred global volcanic CO2 estimate of 0.26 gigaton per year (Marty and Tolstikhin, 1998).

In recent times, about 70 volcanoes are normally active each year on the Earth’s subaerial terrain. One of these is Kīlauea volcano in Hawaii, which has an annual baseline CO2 output of about 0.0031 gigatons per year [Gerlach et al., 2002]. It would take a huge addition of volcanoes to the subaerial landscape—the equivalent of an extra 11,200 Kīlauea volcanoes—to scale up the global volcanic CO2 emission rate to the anthropogenic CO2 emission rate. Similarly, scaling up the volcanic rate to the current anthropogenic rate by adding more submarine volcanoes would require an addition of about 360 more mid-ocean ridge systems to the sea floor, based on mid-ocean ridge CO2 estimates of Marty and Tolstikhin (1998).

There continues to be efforts to reduce uncertainties and improve estimates of present-day global volcanic CO2 emissions, but there is little doubt among volcanic gas scientists that the anthropogenic CO2 emissions dwarf global volcanic CO2 emissions. "


Another good link to facts,
http://www.agu.org/pubs/pdf/2011EO240001.pdf
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/
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22-11-2011, 10:59 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
I agree that a single normal eruption would not release enough CO2, but the Siberian Traps are a very large body of igneous rock that represent an enormous eruption, the likes of which we have never seen in recorded human history. There are 2 other issues with this eruption that increase the total amount of CO2 released too. First are the rocks that the lavas were extruded through. They were extruded through coal seams. Needless to say that means a lot of burning coal and a release of even more CO2 (Baud et al. 1989; Holser and Magaritz, 1992). This is also a positive feedback loop in that the second step is the release of large amounts of methane. There is a negative shift in the delta 13C values at this time which is the source of the prediction for massive outgassing of CO2 as well as the re-oxidation of the coal seams that the lava extruded through. This negative shift however cannot be accounted for solely by CO2, it would not be able to account for the magnitude of the shift. But, destabalization of methane clathrates and the melting of permafrost would release large quantities of very negative methane in the atmosphere. Methane is not only a powerful greenhouse gas in itself, but give it about a decade in the atmosphere and it decomposes into massive amounts of CO2.

All of these events conspired for not only a serious perturbation of the climates, but also of ocean conditions. There is evidence of widespread anoxia, hypoxia and hypercapnia associated with this event. These are what are known as the kill mechanisms of the Permian-Triassic event. The eruption, re-oxidation of carbon-rich rocks and release of methane are the trigger(s). If I had to venture a guess as to the extent of human impact on the climate today, I would say that we are nowhere near the magnitude of the P-Tr event but, as I said in my previous post, we are doing an unfortunately good job at matching the rate, and the rate is the bad part. A rate that is too high does not leave much time for adaptation and results in an extinction event.

So, are we the sole cause? No, but we have contributed to the positive feedback loop. We are burning the fossil fuels, causing slight increases in temperature as a result (maybe) that may ultimately result in further destabilization of methane in ocean sediments and we are already seeing more methane released from the decomposition in permafrost areas. I think there are better reasons to clean up our act than some misguided assumption that we can "reverse" climate change (our health for instance). And irregardless of our contribution (or lack thereof) we should be taking measures to adapt to the changing climate because we know it is changing, that it won't stop and that this won't be the last time.

As for the rest of the life on our planet, that much is very uncertain. If organisms don't have enough time to adapt, they will go extinct, and organisms in the oceans are going to be the ones hit the hardest. Here is the thing though, the secret of evolution is time and death. Without the mass extinctions of the past, life would not be like it is today. Extinctions cause radical changes to ecosystems and promote evolution. Sometimes it takes a purge of the incumbents in order to make room for the next ruling class, I hope we are in that next ruling class though!

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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28-11-2011, 10:10 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(14-11-2011 11:07 AM)bemore Wrote:  
(14-11-2011 10:43 AM)DaylightDusk Wrote:  
(07-11-2011 05:48 AM)bemore Wrote:  Man made global warming...........do you believe it is real???

Id like to hear what people say before I put my evidence forward........what I will state first though (so you can kinda see where my loyalyts lie) is that ALL of the planets in our solar system are warming up.

So if anybody has any Evidence to support it (that we are the cause of planetary change) Rolleyes id like them to post it please Big Grin

Of course man did this. Humans have never had a positive affect on Earth. If humans didnt exist Earth would be covered in forest really. There would be no gaping hole in the ozone layer, anything bad (except natural disastors) humans caused.

With respect can I ask how you come to this conclusion???

Its commen sence Dodgy I mean can you really give me something positive that humans have had on Earth?
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28-11-2011, 12:15 PM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
What are you doing, DD? Texting on yer phone? And this reads more like more human self-flagellation going on. Aren't you a good thing produced by humans?

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09-12-2011, 06:59 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
In my opinion the most important things when it comes to global warming is not who caused it, but how we can prevent it or slow down the current path it's taking. We know it's getting hotter, we know oceans are rising, glaciers are melting. We know animal life aswell as human lives will be harmed. So what can we do? Well if we don't want the planet to continue getting hotter in the rate it is getting hotter it's important we find good alternative energy sources such as nuclear power. CO2 and other gases do thicken the atmosphere and it does trap heat. Venus is a good demonstration of this, it's covered with thick poisonous gas, and the planet is very hot. Alot of heat is trapped inside.

But yes people do exaggerate, on both sides, many say it's a huge catastrophy that will result in armaggedon! And some say it's a myth. We need to look at the real facts and try ignore the doomsayers, the deniers however are not that crazy, they have a point that there is little fact that supports global warming caused by man.

Ofcourse global warming wasn't caused by us, it has been here ever since the planet aquired an atmosphere but we are making it thicker, and that needs to be stopped.

What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof Christopher Hitchens

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion Steven Weinberg
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09-12-2011, 05:43 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2011 06:21 PM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(28-11-2011 12:15 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  What are you doing, DD? Texting on yer phone? And this reads more like more human self-flagellation going on. Aren't you a good thing produced by humans?

Why would any person think they are a good thing produced by humans? Actually how is that any different from the religious people thinking they are special because they were created by god. Except, you don't even have a BS reason. You would just be declaring you are born, and therefore special.

4.154 people are born every second.
1.744 people die every second.
7 billion people are currently alive.

Nope, you are not important, never mind special, and truthfully this world would be far better off without humans.
In fact every single additional human just makes the entire planet slightly worse. The human race and the planet would be far better off with about 5 billion less people.


Quote:But yes people do exaggerate, on both sides, many say it's a huge catastrophy that will result in armaggedon! And some say it's a myth. We need to look at the real facts and try ignore the doomsayers, the deniers however are not that crazy, they have a point that there is little fact that supports global warming caused by man.
Yup just like there are few facts supporting evolution....PRAISE JESUS!!

Did you even read the thread? There are numerous facts, including links to reputable websites about this topic.

Quote:In my opinion the most important things when it comes to global warming is not who caused it, but how we can prevent it or slow down the current path it's taking. We know it's getting hotter, we know oceans are rising, glaciers are melting. We know animal life aswell as human lives will be harmed. So what can we do? Well if we don't want the planet to continue getting hotter in the rate it is getting hotter it's important we find good alternative energy sources such as nuclear power. CO2 and other gases do thicken the atmosphere and it does trap heat. Venus is a good demonstration of this, it's covered with thick poisonous gas, and the planet is very hot. Alot of heat is trapped inside.
How can you go from making this statement to the one above? That is ludicrous!

Ohh and the solution is simple, its just that no one wants to talk about it. In fact, not only does it greatly solve this problem, but it also greatly solves every global problem.
The answer,Child Limit Laws such as in China. If each couple were only allowed to have one child, then we could greatly reduce the current unsustainable population to sustainable numbers within only a few generations.

Population control is not a new concept, on the contrary its a very basic concept that even the most mundane wild life enthusiast knows about. And it so eloquently solves so many problems; food shortage, water shortage, climate change, desertification, pollution, energy, standard of living, infrastructure, etc... I am hard pressed to think of a problem it doesn't solve to some degree tbh. However, no one will even talk about this subject for some reason. Yet one could easily even make an argument for it using the US constitution. You have the right to do whatever you want, until it impedes on the rights of others. These people with 10 kids, are certainly impeding on the rights of not every person in the US, but every person on the planet.

I think we are still in that baby boomer mentality of god given infinite resources, thus we don't need to be concerned with our population.
However, nothing could be further from the truth.
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09-12-2011, 08:11 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2011 08:15 PM by Loathed.)
RE: Man Made Global Warming
tl;dr: Not a climate change denier, just missrepresented myself with stupid phrasing.

(09-12-2011 05:43 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  
(28-11-2011 12:15 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  What are you doing, DD? Texting on yer phone? And this reads more like more human self-flagellation going on. Aren't you a good thing produced by humans?

Why would any person think they are a good thing produced by humans? Actually how is that any different from the religious people thinking they are special because they were created by god. Except, you don't even have a BS reason. You would just be declaring you are born, and therefore special.

4.154 people are born every second.
1.744 people die every second.
7 billion people are currently alive.

Nope, you are not important, never mind special, and truthfully this world would be far better off without humans.
In fact every single additional human just makes the entire planet slightly worse. The human race and the planet would be far better off with about 5 billion less people.


Quote:But yes people do exaggerate, on both sides, many say it's a huge catastrophy that will result in armaggedon! And some say it's a myth. We need to look at the real facts and try ignore the doomsayers, the deniers however are not that crazy, they have a point that there is little fact that supports global warming caused by man.
Yup just like there are few facts supporting evolution....PRAISE JESUS!!

Did you even read the thread? There are numerous facts, including links to reputable websites about this topic.

Quote:In my opinion the most important things when it comes to global warming is not who caused it, but how we can prevent it or slow down the current path it's taking. We know it's getting hotter, we know oceans are rising, glaciers are melting. We know animal life aswell as human lives will be harmed. So what can we do? Well if we don't want the planet to continue getting hotter in the rate it is getting hotter it's important we find good alternative energy sources such as nuclear power. CO2 and other gases do thicken the atmosphere and it does trap heat. Venus is a good demonstration of this, it's covered with thick poisonous gas, and the planet is very hot. Alot of heat is trapped inside.
How can you go from making this statement to the one above? That is ludicrous!

Ohh and the solution is simple, its just that no one wants to talk about it. In fact, not only does it greatly solve this problem, but it also greatly solves every global problem.
The answer,Child Limit Laws such as in China. If each couple were only allowed to have one child, then we could greatly reduce the current unsustainable population to sustainable numbers within only a few generations.

Population control is not a new concept, on the contrary its a very basic concept that even the most mundane wild life enthusiast knows about. And it so eloquently solves so many problems; food shortage, water shortage, climate change, desertification, pollution, energy, standard of living, infrastructure, etc... I am hard pressed to think of a problem it doesn't solve to some degree tbh. However, no one will even talk about this subject for some reason. Yet one could easily even make an argument for it using the US constitution. You have the right to do whatever you want, until it impedes on the rights of others. These people with 10 kids, are certainly impeding on the rights of not every person in the US, but every person on the planet.

I think we are still in that baby boomer mentality of god given infinite resources, thus we don't need to be concerned with our population.
However, nothing could be further from the truth.
I think you missunderstood my point, probably my fault for phrasing it poorly, I was not saying (atleast didn't mean to say) that the deniers are in anyway correct, I was just saying I get why some may be sceptical if they don't have all the evidence. I wasn't saying that I wasn't satisfied with the evidence, I've seen enough to understand that we are causing the atmosphere to grow thicker and more isolating. And you're right I haven't read all the other posts, I was merely stating my personal opinion, and because it is my personal opinion I figured it would be somewhat different from other posts and therefore not just a stupid edition or copy of what others have already said.

And about population control, studies show that the ammount of kids people get depends on which kind of country they live in and how wealthy they are. Poor people tend to have more kids, especially in countries were poverty is big, like most of the countries in Africa. In Europe and the US people don't get as many kids, people here only have like 1-3. If you wanna control population growth and ammount of kids per family then you would probably have to try do that in poor regions, which would probably be impossible, poor civilizations usually get many kids so the kids can help support the family and their parents when they grow old, while richer regions don't have as many and may not require as much control. So I don't see a way for you to do this, China can do it 'cause it's a dictatorship where the communist party rules over the people.
Not sure if I'm making any sense atm, it's 3 AM here.

What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof Christopher Hitchens

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion Steven Weinberg
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10-12-2011, 02:09 PM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(09-12-2011 05:43 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  I think we are still in that baby boomer mentality of god given infinite resources, thus we don't need to be concerned with our population.
However, nothing could be further from the truth.

1. How did that like button get near that reply button? That wasn't supposed to happen. Tongue

2. The mind is the infinite resource. If there's anything more definitive of hypocrisy than a human talking smack about humanity, it's gotta be in scripture. You've been smoking the peace pipe with the idiotic tree-hugger crowd who run some simple numbers backwards and conclude that Gaia would be better off without us. That means, without you. That means, in some happy-hippie smoke filled vision some greenie is scoping the post-humanity scene and going, "cool, bro."

Only, through what eyes is this mystic seeing this vision? The rat? The cockroach? The mystic continues to fail to see the inevitable, that the thinking animal that goes, "cool, bro," is already calculating what is not so cool. Like predation and parasites. Like cold, like heat, like seasonal flux in the vegetation that causes feast and famine, overpopulation and starvation.

Yeah, that's real cool, bro. We can either stop the irregularities of Gaia now for all life as humans, or we can put or collective head in the sand under some guilt pretext and let Gaia evolve the next thinking animal to do it all over again. Still sound cool, bro?

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24-11-2012, 12:23 PM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(07-11-2011 06:23 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Global Warming is a scam. Climate change? That's what climates do - change. Did we do it? Who the fuck knows.
Yes natural climate change occurs no doubt. Over a large portion of earth's history there wasn't even any ice at the poles, that much is true, too. Evidence such as the data collected by Charles David Keeling collected at Mauna Loa (see 'Keeling Curve') does however strongly imply that man made CO2 emissions do play a role. If the anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions add to the natural climate change... that's what makes scientists concerned. An increase in global temperature beyond a certain point can result in an oceanic anoxic event (OAE). Simply put:
- Oxygen dissolves better in cold water than in warm water. Therefore the increase in water temperature in oceans can lead to a decrease in dissolved oxygen.
- Depending on the extent of this development aerobic organisms can and will die out.
- At the same time anearobic microorganisms thrive in this new anoxic environment and begin to mulitply rapidly.

- These anaerobic microorganisms produce H2S as a metabolic waste product
- H2S, which is by the way a highly toxic gas, forms bubbles which rise to the water surface and moves into the atmosphere
- Keep in mind that if that happens with all oceans on the planet the amount of H2S produced will be substantial.
--> All aerobic life on land AND in the oceans will be fucked (and not in the good way).
As you see it's not just about 'slightly higher temperatures' and there is absolutely no reason to further push climate change - natural or not. And while this won't happen any time soon it can and will happen if we continue to ignore it. I personally care about the future of our species and have therefore no desire to contribute to the painful deaths of my great great granddchildren...
Take care.

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