Man Made Global Warming
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24-11-2012, 08:12 PM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
Proof?

How can you look at something like this:

[Image: CO2_1000ybp.jpg]

In regards to something like this:

[Image: TempMideaval.jpg]

And NOT conclude that man is the primary cause in global warming today?

Yes it's like a wave, it increases, it decreases etc... but not like that.

I find it somewhat too much of a coincidence that the time that CO2 levels rapid rose, along with temperature as a result, is the EXACT same time as the industrial revolution.

It's proof right there.
Plus, CO2 is only part of the problem, when you heat up the planet via CO2, you then increase the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere which in turn speeds the whole process up, rinse and repeat.

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25-11-2012, 01:35 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
Sorry muffs, that ain't proof. I'm not saying that man isn't the cause, but all that data shows is that the temperature and CO^2 levels began rising the same time, which was also when the industrial revolution began and has continued to rise with the increase of our industrialized world. The two do not necessarily correlate. It could be that it is pure coincidence. We do know that the temperature and CO^2 levels have fluctuated throughout earths history, and not necessarily dependent of one another. The data points to a possibility that man is adversely affected our atmosphere and causing rises in temperature prematurely, however this is not proof. I would advocate for using cleaner and more renewable sources of energy, it is certainly a good idea. I wonder to myself what Hume and Pierce would have to say about this and what course of action we should take in a debate Consider

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25-11-2012, 04:02 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(24-11-2012 08:12 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Proof?

How can you look at something like this:

[Image: CO2_1000ybp.jpg]

In regards to something like this:

[Image: TempMideaval.jpg]

And NOT conclude that man is the primary cause in global warming today?

Yes it's like a wave, it increases, it decreases etc... but not like that.

I find it somewhat too much of a coincidence that the time that CO2 levels rapid rose, along with temperature as a result, is the EXACT same time as the industrial revolution.

It's proof right there.
Plus, CO2 is only part of the problem, when you heat up the planet via CO2, you then increase the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere which in turn speeds the whole process up, rinse and repeat.
Well there's also a direct correlation between the population curve and the CO2 curve you've posted :
[Image: World_Population_Graph.jpg]
We all know that breathing produces CO2, so a population increase from 1bn to 7bn in only about 200 years has got to have had an impact. Not forgeting the increase in cattle farming, rice cultivation, etc, which are also contributing factors to increased CO2 levels. Add to that a reduction in forest coverage and you get a drop in the Earth's capacity to absorb the CO2 produced by breathing.
So although this obviously suggests that increasing CO2 levels are "man-made", it's not because of industrialization and the burning of fosil feuls, but just the simple fact of us being alive.

Also, please note the title of your second graph "Reconstructed..."
A cynic might say that it's possible that some data has been engineered to fit with a pre-conceived result. In fact many scientists do challenge the mathematical and physical premises used in climate models.
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25-11-2012, 06:12 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(25-11-2012 01:35 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Sorry muffs, that ain't proof. I'm not saying that man isn't the cause, but all that data shows is that the temperature and CO^2 levels began rising the same time, which was also when the industrial revolution began and has continued to rise with the increase of our industrialized world. The two do not necessarily correlate. It could be that it is pure coincidence. We do know that the temperature and CO^2 levels have fluctuated throughout earths history, and not necessarily dependent of one another. The data points to a possibility that man is adversely affected our atmosphere and causing rises in temperature prematurely, however this is not proof. I would advocate for using cleaner and more renewable sources of energy, it is certainly a good idea. I wonder to myself what Hume and Pierce would have to say about this and what course of action we should take in a debate Consider
The mechanism of the greenhouse effect is well understood in science. Carbon compounds are bound in fossil hydrocarbons (i.e. oil, coal, gas) and are released as CO2 (and by the way it's not CO² No ) upon burning. It's true that trees metabolize CO2 via fotosynthesis ( 6 H2O + 6 CO2 --> C6H12O6 + 6 O2), BUT there's only so much trees and this mechanism is not the all powerful CO2 recycler.
Arguing that it is coincidence that industrial revolution and CO2 levels correlate is like saying: "Well things tend to fall down. It's probably just a coincidence. Gravity doesn't exist, it's just that objects coincidentally move towards larger objects." Also: A proof is something we use in maths. In natural science we call something like this evidence. And this is damn good evidence.
And as for idlecuriousity's comment: OF COURSE the industrial revolution correllates with an exponential growth of population. Are you really surprised by that? Rolleyes Also we are nnot the only species on this planet. When we multiply others die out. That's how the max population of living things is regulated on a planet...

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"Nothing cannot exist forever."
- Stephen Hawking

"Hmmm, Bacon..."
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25-11-2012, 06:23 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(25-11-2012 04:02 AM)Idlecuriosity Wrote:  Also, please note the title of your second graph "Reconstructed..."
A cynic might say that it's possible that some data has been engineered to fit with a pre-conceived result. In fact many scientists do challenge the mathematical and physical premises used in climate models.
Sorry to post yet again but I just noticed the sheer magnitude of BS in that sentence. That's not what "Reconstructed" means, for fuck's sake! Reconstructed means, that the graph has been made by using data (which can be obtained from both rocks and ice core for example) to RECONSTRUCT the climate. Please, Pleeeease, leave science to the scientists, dude.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one."
- Albert Einstein

"Nothing cannot exist forever."
- Stephen Hawking

"Hmmm, Bacon..."
- Homer Simpson
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25-11-2012, 09:33 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(25-11-2012 06:23 AM)WeAreOne Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 04:02 AM)Idlecuriosity Wrote:  Also, please note the title of your second graph "Reconstructed..."
A cynic might say that it's possible that some data has been engineered to fit with a pre-conceived result. In fact many scientists do challenge the mathematical and physical premises used in climate models.
Sorry to post yet again but I just noticed the sheer magnitude of BS in that sentence. That's not what "Reconstructed" means, for fuck's sake! Reconstructed means, that the graph has been made by using data (which can be obtained from both rocks and ice core for example) to RECONSTRUCT the climate. Please, Pleeeease, leave science to the scientists, dude.
Oh calm down please !
I didn't say "reconstructed" = "made them up".
You can't ignore that there is still debate on the subject (Google: Hockey Stick Controversy).
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25-11-2012, 09:51 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(25-11-2012 06:12 AM)WeAreOne Wrote:  And as for idlecuriousity's comment: OF COURSE the industrial revolution correllates with an exponential growth of population. Are you really surprised by that? Rolleyes Also we are nnot the only species on this planet. When we multiply others die out. That's how the max population of living things is regulated on a planet...
Obviously the Industrial Revolution, as well as progress in medical science, is a factor that hugely impacted population growth. Drinking Beverage
I'm intrigued by your next statement however. Are you saying the the Earth self-regulates the number of species existing at any one time ? Do you infer that the additional 6bn humans that exist today vs. 200 years ago is compensated by an equivalent reduction in other living creatures ? If so, do you mean in number, biological mass, volume of CO2 exhaled, other criteria...?

I'm not trying to mis-represent what you said, it's just that I've never heard this stated before (...you know, like, because I'm not a scientist, dude Tongue )
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25-11-2012, 11:39 AM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
WeAreOne Wrote:Arguing that it is coincidence that industrial revolution and CO2 levels
correlate is like saying: "Well things tend to fall down. It's probably
just a coincidence. Gravity doesn't exist, it's just that objects
coincidentally move towards larger objects." Also: A proof is something
we use in maths. In natural science we call something like this evidence. And this is damn good evidence.
Ummm...no. That is a false analogy, it is not like gravity being proven wrong, not even close. Besides that I stated multiple times in my statement that man very well could be the cause. I am not the person that asked if the data was proof, that was earmuffs, I was refuting that statement in the same way you are. I fully accept that the data supports that theory, and it's evidence of it, but it is far from being generally accepted fact. There are more things at play, too many variables to consider...

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25-11-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
(25-11-2012 11:39 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
WeAreOne Wrote:
Ummm...no. That is a false analogy, it is not like gravity being proven wrong, not even close. Besides that I stated multiple times in my statement that man very well could be the cause. I am not the person that asked if the data was proof, that was earmuffs, I was refuting that statement in the same way you are. I fully accept that the data supports that theory, and it's evidence of it, but it is far from being generally accepted fact. There are more things at play, too many variables to consider...
Hi! You are right to point out that gravitational theory is supported by far more and also better evidence than the relatively young theory of climate change. Granite I was wrong and therefore I apologize. Cleavage at that Wink .
So let me put it in a more humble way... I try not to think in absolutes but in probabilities. The evidence I've seen so far points to a higher probability for the validity of the theory than against. Should convincing evidence arise that points any other way I will of course examine it and change my mind accordingly. So far what I have seen as 'counter evidence' was wanting to say the least. However climatology and geochemistry are not my absolute specialty as I focus more on things like petrology, structural geology, geophysics and magmatism. So I too have to rely to a certain degree on what the experts say. The reason I got a little pissed off was that you did misrepresent the actual data by saying something that could be understood as "Nobody has a clue." The general blog reader who is not interested in science will take this assertion and come to a completely wrong conclusion. I am by the way aware of the irony that in trying to correct you I became guilty of the crime of unprecise language myself Dodgy .
In the end neither you nor I but science decide about the evidence. In the meantime I'm sure it is beneficial in many ways to invest some resources and research in more efficient and more environmental friendly technologies. This is a good idea and we would benefit greatly from this even if climate change would ever turn out to be false (and again there is no real evidence for that as of yet imo).
What frustrates me though is the notion of the general public that scientists have some sort of conspiracy going on. It's the same notion that is slowly but surely undermining modern biology by trading in evolution for intelligent design. If every uneducated buffoon thinks he can decide on whether a scientific theory is valid or not science itself becomes eroded by prejudice and opinion. And that I cannot ignore as you might understand. And while I don't mean you specifically with 'uneducated buffoon' you do contribute to this development by using assertions and false information, which is something the average person finds convincing enough to build an opinion (as can be seen in some of the comments here).
So maybe you understand where I'm coming from when I get a little shall we say emotionally invested. It has nothing to do with me wishing for climate change to be true, but it comes from a frustration caused by what I feel is a misrepresentation of data and scientific evidence.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one."
- Albert Einstein

"Nothing cannot exist forever."
- Stephen Hawking

"Hmmm, Bacon..."
- Homer Simpson
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25-11-2012, 01:52 PM
RE: Man Made Global Warming
@ Dark Light: I just recognized that I mistook you with Idlecuriosity. Please ignore the part where I say that you used assertions. You didn't.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one."
- Albert Einstein

"Nothing cannot exist forever."
- Stephen Hawking

"Hmmm, Bacon..."
- Homer Simpson
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