Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
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18-12-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
(18-12-2015 11:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Every accusation can be portrayed as false if a conviction doesn't result. There are not crowds of reactionaries bitching about "false theft accusations". I wonder why.


I don't. It's because it's understood that the accused of any other crime are innocent until proven guilty. The modus operandi of deep-end feminists in cases of rape allegations is "listen and believe the accuser. Alwayse." Even after being found innocent, someone accused of rape is left with their life ruined more often than not. For these reasons, there needs to be the 'reactionary' skepticism to rape claims.
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18-12-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
(18-12-2015 11:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The two sides in a courtroom are "there is enough evidence to be sure beyond all reasonable doubt" and "there is not enough evidence to be sure beyond all reasonable doubt".

as it should be

(18-12-2015 11:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The definition of sexual assault is utterly unambiguous under the law.

Well I was talking about evidence and claims not definition

(18-12-2015 11:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Every accusation can be portrayed as false if a conviction doesn't result. There are not crowds of reactionaries bitching about "false theft accusations". I wonder why.

Because rapist are treated much worst than the theif. There is usually more evidence for theft than rape. Also, the sjw kinda helped in this false rape problem.

(18-12-2015 11:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes.


"Skepticism". Like these comments:

Quote:another case of a woman lying to try and get something
Quote:Or a gold digging little skank.
Quote:skank got mad because he would not pay her more money......

Dodgy

Well I did say it should be for skepticism and not for its PC bullshit. What you quoted is the latter of what I said. I hope you aren't thinking we should take the side of the person crying rape instead of being "blind" like lady justice(and no I am not saying you think this).

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18-12-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
(18-12-2015 12:14 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  I don't. It's because it's understood that the accused of any other crime are innocent until proven guilty.

I was unaware of any current legal provision for suspending that policy for certain crimes. Maybe I just haven't keep up with the news.

(18-12-2015 12:14 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  The modus operandi of deep-end feminists in cases of rape allegations is "listen and believe the accuser. Alwayse."

Is it? Says who? Let's assume people do say that. Are there cases where that is a stated organisational policy, as opposed to just what someone loud says on the internet?

(18-12-2015 12:14 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Even after being found innocent, someone accused of rape is left with their life ruined more often than not.

Unlike being sexually assaulted, which of course never leaves one's life with adverse consequences. But seriously instead of glibly: how often does that actually happen? Anecdotes need not apply.

An innocent person brought to trial for murder suffers plenty of lasting consequences too; in the eyes of the law OJ Simpson was an innocent man who endured false accusations. I'll believe false accusations are problem when I see some actual data. What data we do have show sexual assault to be incredibly underreported. Lowering the threshold for prosecution and conviction is not the answer to this. I have not seriously seen anyone saying it is. I don't pretend to know what is. What do you think?

(18-12-2015 12:14 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  For these reasons, there needs to be the 'reactionary' skepticism to rape claims.

A priori rejection is not skepticism.

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18-12-2015, 01:03 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
(18-12-2015 12:41 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 11:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Every accusation can be portrayed as false if a conviction doesn't result. There are not crowds of reactionaries bitching about "false theft accusations". I wonder why.

Because rapist are treated much worst than the theif. There is usually more evidence for theft than rape.

Citation needed.

(18-12-2015 12:41 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Also, the sjw kinda helped in this false rape problem.

Citation needed.

(18-12-2015 12:41 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I hope you aren't thinking we should take the side of the person crying rape instead of being "blind" like lady justice(and no I am not saying you think this).

If you were sure I wasn't thinking so, why would you need to implicitly ask whether I thought so anyway?

And why the disingenuous phrasing? "Crying" rape? Maybe she did make up the whole thing; that's possible. It's also entirely possible that she was genuinely sexually assaulted. I don't know. You don't know. The legal outcome - flawed though our legal systems demonstrably are - is all I, a distant observer, have to go on, and what that means is that the jury decided - decisively, given the short deliberation - that there was insufficient evidence for a conviction. That's all. That's not grounds to read the minds of the people involved.

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18-12-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
unbelievable....and they deliberated for 30 mins to come to that conclusion?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

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18-12-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
Quote:Citation needed.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2001_02/zug.htm

http://www.vaughancjones.com/Richmond-Cr...o-Pro.aspx


Quote:Citation needed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/l...minar.html

Things like this tend to rile up the other deep end of the spectrum, to add sjw, like the comments like you have seen for crazy shit like this and more(and yes I think both are wrong)

Quote:If you were sure I wasn't thinking so, why would you need to implicitly ask whether I thought so anyway?

Just making sure you didn't take it out of context.

Quote:Maybe she did make up the whole thing; that's possible. It's also entirely possible that she was genuinely sexually assaulted. I don't know. You don't know. The legal outcome - flawed though our legal systems demonstrably are - is all I, a distant observer, have to go on, and what that means is that the jury decided - decisively, given the short deliberation - that there was insufficient evidence for a conviction. That's all. That's not grounds to read the minds of the people involved.

Agreed

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18-12-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
(18-12-2015 01:51 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
Quote:Citation needed.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2001_02/zug.htm

http://www.vaughancjones.com/Richmond-Cr...o-Pro.aspx

But, they're explicitly identifying jurists' and legal professionals' biases as a major block in the process. So I think it's more that this doesn't quite work back to the primary claim.

"Sexual assault is inherently difficult to address due to the ephemeral nature of much of the 'evidence'" does not imply anything about the prevalence of false accusations.
(in that I think some people are all too willing to see "no conviction" as "therefore the accusation was false", when the sources here argue the opposite!)

(18-12-2015 01:51 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
Quote:Citation needed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/l...minar.html

Yabut, that isn't even about false accusations...

(18-12-2015 01:51 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Things like this tend to rile up the other deep end of the spectrum, to add sjw, like the comments like you have seen for crazy shit like this and more(and yes I think both are wrong)

It's not the "sjw" end of the spectrum that the two lawyers you just cited are cautioning about. Anecdotally of course those people exist too, but so what?

(18-12-2015 01:51 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
Quote:Maybe she did make up the whole thing; that's possible. It's also entirely possible that she was genuinely sexually assaulted. I don't know. You don't know. The legal outcome - flawed though our legal systems demonstrably are - is all I, a distant observer, have to go on, and what that means is that the jury decided - decisively, given the short deliberation - that there was insufficient evidence for a conviction. That's all. That's not grounds to read the minds of the people involved.

Agreed

I agree!

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18-12-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
(18-12-2015 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But, they're explicitly identifying jurists' and legal professionals' biases as a major block in the process. So I think it's more that this doesn't quite work back to the primary claim.

"Sexual assault is inherently difficult to address due to the ephemeral nature of much of the 'evidence'" does not imply anything about the prevalence of false accusations.
(in that I think some people are all too willing to see "no conviction" as "therefore the accusation was false", when the sources here argue the opposite!)

yabut, still harder to prosecute than theft which is why I used these sources. When I tied theft, the only thing close to it was source saying identity theft is the hardest to catch. Plus, I never said false rape accusations were prevalent, so my goal was to show rape was hard to prosecute, which is why I have no problem with what you put in parenthesis.


(18-12-2015 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yabut, that isn't even about false accusations...

I was trying to show why such comments you quoted exist, or at least a part of why.


(18-12-2015 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It's not the "sjw" end of the spectrum that the two lawyers you just cited are cautioning about.


I can agree, but the sjw thing was about the comments you quoted on why people on the other end say stupid shit.

(18-12-2015 02:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Anecdotally of course those people exist too, but so what?

Well there are plenty of reasons why it is scary and damaging, but lets not go there, it wouldn't add much.

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18-12-2015, 05:54 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
(18-12-2015 09:32 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't know if this is or isn't true. But it would be nice to know. Can an examination tell if there was sexual intercourse? Just his semen being there isn't sure proof that he did anything to her. She could have planned this in order to get something out of him. Messed up stuff like that unfortunately happens.

I am not sure either but as Jenny so erotically pointed out, some guidance and force is usually necessary at the beginning so I would imagine that unless this guy was hung like a gnat, it would have been painful and probably caused damage if he fell onto/into her. Additionally, if it was on his fingers somehow and he only touched the outside, a swab of the inside would likely not pick much up if anything. The article is really not clear about the details.

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18-12-2015, 06:49 PM
RE: Man who “accidentally tripped” and raped woman cleared
(18-12-2015 05:54 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 09:32 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't know if this is or isn't true. But it would be nice to know. Can an examination tell if there was sexual intercourse? Just his semen being there isn't sure proof that he did anything to her. She could have planned this in order to get something out of him. Messed up stuff like that unfortunately happens.

I am not sure either but as Jenny so erotically pointed out, some guidance and force is usually necessary at the beginning so I would imagine that unless this guy was hung like a gnat, it would have been painful and probably caused damage if he fell onto/into her. Additionally, if it was on his fingers somehow and he only touched the outside, a swab of the inside would likely not pick much up if anything. The article is really not clear about the details.

Laugh out load I wasn't trying to be erotic. Just stating the facts Tongue
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