Manchester England
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23-05-2017, 07:05 AM
RE: Manchester England
(23-05-2017 06:08 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(23-05-2017 05:38 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Losing a loved one, especially a child, in such circumstances has to be unbelievably devastating. The perp is evil. Obviously.

That aside, religion is a problem. But it isn't the problem. It is just the tool that contributes to one aspect of the problem. If we focus on it solely the way we have been, I think we will fail to understand what's going on.

Those of us old enough will likely remember the IRA terror campaigns of the 70s, 80s and 90s. The perps were Irish Catholics. Catholicism was a part of the problem. But it was not the problem.

There was a more fundamental problem that fueled that conflict and it had nothing to do with the superstious beliefs promoted by the Vatican. I suspect that is also the situation today, but with different actors.

I remember the IRA attacks the difference between the two is that the republican attacks were frequently preceded by warnings giving time to clear the area, their purpose was terror and disruption Isis gives no warning their purpose is to kill and kill in the most cowardly way possible, they are a different kettle of fish altogether Imo.

There are certainly some differences. Maybe IRA were "nicer". My point is lost, I think, by focusing on this distinction. I think there is more to the violence than just ISIS being evil and loving to kill people(and they are all these things). But why do they even exist in the first place?

Why are Indonesians and Malaysians - overwhelmingly Muslim and nominally sharing the same beliefs as the perps - rarely, if ever, involved in these attacks?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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23-05-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: Manchester England
Targeting children is the lowest of the low.

Those poor victims and their families. I have no words Sad

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23-05-2017, 07:44 AM
RE: Manchester England
(23-05-2017 07:05 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(23-05-2017 06:08 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I remember the IRA attacks the difference between the two is that the republican attacks were frequently preceded by warnings giving time to clear the area, their purpose was terror and disruption Isis gives no warning their purpose is to kill and kill in the most cowardly way possible, they are a different kettle of fish altogether Imo.

There are certainly some differences. Maybe IRA were "nicer". My point is lost, I think, by focusing on this distinction. I think there is more to the violence than just ISIS being evil and loving to kill people(and they are all these things). But why do they even exist in the first place?

Why are Indonesians and Malaysians - overwhelmingly Muslim and nominally sharing the same beliefs as the perps - rarely, if ever, involved in these attacks?

I honestly don't know bro, it maybe like the religious nutters who bomb abortion clinics in the US different degrees of extreme belief precipitate different behaviour. Some Muslims won't stop until the whole world is Islamic others are happy to live side by side with those who are different even if not prepared to integrate.
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23-05-2017, 08:13 AM
RE: Manchester England
(23-05-2017 07:44 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(23-05-2017 07:05 AM)tomilay Wrote:  There are certainly some differences. Maybe IRA were "nicer". My point is lost, I think, by focusing on this distinction. I think there is more to the violence than just ISIS being evil and loving to kill people(and they are all these things). But why do they even exist in the first place?

Why are Indonesians and Malaysians - overwhelmingly Muslim and nominally sharing the same beliefs as the perps - rarely, if ever, involved in these attacks?

I honestly don't know bro, it maybe like the religious nutters who bomb abortion clinics in the US different degrees of extreme belief precipitate different behaviour. Some Muslims won't stop until the whole world is Islamic others are happy to live side by side with those who are different even if not prepared to integrate.

I don't know either. And your observation about different behaviors goes to my point. The most I am able to take away from this particular conflict, is that Islam is the most convenient and effective tool of mobilization for one party. It is a means to an end. If they had more effective tools, they would dump Islam and use those at the drop of a hat.

Blaming it solely on Islam is like blaming the semi that one of these nuts used to run over people Nice, France for the crime - granted Islam has its own features that facilitate its utility in such a conflict. We are living through a major conflict, and the least we owe ourselves, is to at least try and understand it. Once you put a finger on it, you can start to see potential avenues to an end of the conflict.

Now that does not mean ISIS don't need to be destroyed. They do. And knowing what keeps them going is a crucial part of that equation.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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23-05-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: Manchester England
(23-05-2017 08:13 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(23-05-2017 07:44 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I honestly don't know bro, it maybe like the religious nutters who bomb abortion clinics in the US different degrees of extreme belief precipitate different behaviour. Some Muslims won't stop until the whole world is Islamic others are happy to live side by side with those who are different even if not prepared to integrate.

I don't know either. And your observation about different behaviors goes to my point. The most I am able to take away from this particular conflict, is that Islam is the most convenient and effective tool of mobilization for one party. It is a means to an end. If they had more effective tools, they would dump Islam and use those at the drop of a hat.

Blaming it solely on Islam is like blaming the semi that one of these nuts used to run over people Nice, France for the crime - granted Islam has its own features that facilitate its utility in such a conflict. We are living through a major conflict, and the least we owe ourselves, is to at least try and understand it. Once you put a finger on it, you can start to see potential avenues to an end of the conflict.

Now that does not mean ISIS don't need to be destroyed. They do. And knowing what keeps them going is a crucial part of that equation.

I agree with you 100%
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23-05-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: Manchester England
I haven't checked the news in days...almost wish I didn't...

How awful...

I will never understand how people can be so evil. We don't see this sort of thing in animals, they have actual reasons to kill.

There was no reason for this...

Why is it so hard for us to recognize that we are all humans? Why do we kill each other, hurt each other.

Over sky daddies? Over money? Over land? Over ideas?

Why?

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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23-05-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: Manchester England
I think what scares me about Islam isn't the extremists, because every religion has nutters who will use their religion for evil.
It's the rigidity and real inability to make your own decisions.

Let's face it, as crappy as Christianity can be, we are (mostly) at the point where you can disavow Christianity, even if you don't admit you are an atheist. You can simply choose to not participate. And yes, there are still areas (evangelicals) where this is quite difficult, but you don't fear for your life if you decide not to go to church.

Islam is different. It is a religion completely ingrained in culture. It's not just religion, it's a way of life.
Atheists fear for their lives and go along w/ the routines out of fear. Search "islam + atheists". Scary stuff Sad
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/hom...44661.html
I am willing to bet that children and women wouldn't choose that lifestyle IF they had the option. But they aren't given an option.

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23-05-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: Manchester England
(23-05-2017 04:10 AM)julep Wrote:  This is so horrific.

I hate the idea of heaven/paradise so much. I wish it could be erased from every human brain.

I wish heaven was an actual thing, honestly. One that took in good people(actually good, not "followed arbitrary rules from an old book" good) but was fair enough to recognize that no one's perfect.

Because if such a place existed, most likely all the people killed here (and in the other attacks) would be there instead of just gone forever.

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
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23-05-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Manchester England
(23-05-2017 05:11 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-05-2017 03:56 AM)Norm Deplume Wrote:  I was planning to go to Manchester today. That got cancelled when I switched the radio on this morning and found out about this appalling horror.

There is a COBRA meeting going on at the moment in Downing Street. There should be a press briefing fairly soon.

[Cobra committee meetings deal with national emergencies - it stands for Cabinet Office Briefing Room A, where the meetings are usually held.]

Cool acronym.

Hmm. Politicians, deadly snakes...no I can't see any connection at all.

From what I saw, most of this morning's meeting must have been devoted to writing re-writing Theresa May's speech so that it said as little as possible and told us only what we already knew - this was horrible. Nothing about what measures to take. There was a second meeting later. It's possible that might involve actual action.

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23-05-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: Manchester England
Manchester Arena attacker named as Salman Ramadan Abedi


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017...ana-grande


I am disgusted and horrified at this attack, how can we excise such medieval and barbaric ideologies from the world?

I am an Indian Christian but I'm also immigrant to the UK, I came here when I was 5 yrs old along with my parents and my mum described it as "coming from a land where there is fierce competition and little opportunity (India) to a haven"

We get free healthcare, we have freedom and security and we are grateful

People like this monster are not grateful, if a person decides to live in a foreign country, then they should live in accordance with customs and laws of the land

This also affects the normal moderate Muslims the ones who silently pay their taxes and live on, they are tarred by the same brush as this misguided individual

I guess, the moderate Muslims are partially to blame too, they remain silent about these atrocities and never really condemn them

Silence is the same as agreeing with it

Speak up.. cos you need to

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