Manual for creating atheists
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17-01-2014, 01:25 AM
RE: Manual for creating atheists
I consider myself anti-theist. Opposed to theology though not theologians. I prefer to attack the ideas not the person. I think there's a 'movement' too. I put it in quotations because I use the word for want of a better word but to be honest, in line with the last 20 years of advancement in communication, there has definitely been a rise in a more vocal, conscious and intellectual push back against theology which effects our day to day lives.

With all of that in mind a manual to rally us? Really? It brings to mind that scene in Life of Brian...

Brian --- You are ALL different!
Crowd --- YES, WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT!

Smile

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17-01-2014, 01:42 AM
RE: Manual for creating atheists
I can write a manual to make an atheist right here:

1- Make a baby
2- Don't indoctrinate the baby with religious BS
3- ???
4- Profit

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17-01-2014, 01:51 AM
RE: Manual for creating atheists
(17-01-2014 01:42 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I can write a manual to make an atheist right here:

1- Make a baby
2- Don't indoctrinate the baby with religious BS
3- ???
4- Profit

Hahaha, this made me laugh! Big Grin
You might want to think about fleshing that out a bit and get a book deal! ... Love it! Thumbsup

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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17-01-2014, 06:28 AM
RE: Manual for creating atheists
What's the antithesis of an anti-theist? Is it a theist or an anti-atheist?
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17-01-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Manual for creating atheists
(17-01-2014 06:28 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  What's the antithesis of an anti-theist? Is it a theist or an anti-atheist?

theist Thumbsup

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17-01-2014, 08:59 AM
RE: Manual for creating atheists
(16-01-2014 07:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Saw this credo from a "New Atheist" over at Salon, which apparently is a euphemism for anti-theist. Girly can't be bothered with anti-theism so I figured I'd respond here.

15 ways atheists can stand up for rationality.

Actually 16, 10 was repeated. Doesn't bode well for Salon's editors. Tongue

1. “Let’s say grace!”
I'll go along with that and bow my head and close my eyes. Naps are good no matter the duration.

2. “Religion is a personal matter. It’s not polite to bring it up.”
"Metaphysics is a personal matter. It's not polite to bring it up."
fixt

3. “You’re an atheist? I feel sorry for you.”
I feel sorry for me too, although for entirely different reasons.

4. “If you’re an atheist, life has no purpose.”
I got one job. Making purpose. Sure as shit ain't gonna cede it to nobody, especially no God. I got one job.

5. “If you abolish religion, nothing will stop people from killing, raping and looting.”
Ain't had religion going on 40 years now, ain't killed, raped or looted yet and I sure as shit ain't gonna start now.

6. “Nothing can equal the majesty of God and His creation.”
Euler's identity. [Image: euler2-2.jpg]

7. “It is irrational to believe that the world came about without a creator.”
It is irrational to believe in causation. It is just a convenient explanatory concept. cf. Hume

8. “I will pray for you to see the light.”
Pray away. Ah fuck it, move over, I'll pray with you.

9. “If you’re wrong about God, you go to hell. It’s safer to believe.”
Any promise of a postmortem preservation of identity is not only utterly untenable bullshit with no conceivable, let alone plausible, mechanism of action, it seems nonsensical.

10. “Religion is of great comfort to me, especially in times of loss. Too bad it isn’t for you.”
Fair enough. Pharmaceuticals provide great comfort to me. ... Here, you wanna try some?

11. “As you age and face death, you will come to need religion.”
Watched my grandfather die over the course of a week after a heart attack. Watched my grandfather lose his lifelong religion over the course of a week.

12. “You have no right to criticize my religious beliefs.”
You are correct within my workplace. Proselytism and religious criticism is verboten at the risk of my job and livelihood. Outside of my workplace, I got no good reason or even inclination to even consider or give a shit about your religious beliefs, let alone criticize them.


13. “Jesus was merciful.”
"If he existed – and there is still, after centuries of searching, no proof that he did – he was at times a heartless prophet of doom for the sinners he supposedly loved, commanding those who failed to give comfort to the poor to 'depart . . . ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.' ”

My interpretation of The Word there is if you ain't got empathy you're fucked. Like right here, right now.

14. ”You can’t prove there’s no God.”
Proofs are overrated.

15. “My religion is true for me.”
False. Everything is false.

16. “Don’t take everything in the Bible literally."
This atheist still reads the Red Letter Version of the New Testament for inspiration. I am convinced The Christ was an atheist and The Word is save yourself, save the world. Tongue

Beautiful, Girly. 9.75/10. It should've been "proofs" are overrated. What are you, an newbie nihilist? Come on now! Tongue


-
Now the real way to to create an Atheist.

Step 1.) Teach someone logic. I prefer starting with Charles S. Peirce's The Grounds of Validity of the Laws of Logic since that's where I got my start into the study of logic when I was ~12.

Step 2.) Teach the person religion.

Step 3.) Party.

Step 4.) Take a nap.

Done.

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17-01-2014, 09:37 AM
RE: Manual for creating atheists
(16-01-2014 07:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Saw this credo from a "New Atheist" over at Salon, which apparently is a euphemism for anti-theist. Girly can't be bothered with anti-theism so I figured I'd respond here.

15 ways atheists can stand up for rationality.

Actually 16, 10 was repeated. Doesn't bode well for Salon's editors. Tongue

1. “Let’s say grace!”
I'll go along with that and bow my head and close my eyes. Naps are good no matter the duration.

2. “Religion is a personal matter. It’s not polite to bring it up.”
"Metaphysics is a personal matter. It's not polite to bring it up."
fixt

3. “You’re an atheist? I feel sorry for you.”
I feel sorry for me too, although for entirely different reasons.

4. “If you’re an atheist, life has no purpose.”
I got one job. Making purpose. Sure as shit ain't gonna cede it to nobody, especially no God. I got one job.

5. “If you abolish religion, nothing will stop people from killing, raping and looting.”
Ain't had religion going on 40 years now, ain't killed, raped or looted yet and I sure as shit ain't gonna start now.

6. “Nothing can equal the majesty of God and His creation.”
Euler's identity. [Image: euler2-2.jpg]

7. “It is irrational to believe that the world came about without a creator.”
It is irrational to believe in causation. It is just a convenient explanatory concept. cf. Hume

8. “I will pray for you to see the light.”
Pray away. Ah fuck it, move over, I'll pray with you.

9. “If you’re wrong about God, you go to hell. It’s safer to believe.”
Any promise of a postmortem preservation of identity is not only utterly untenable bullshit with no conceivable, let alone plausible, mechanism of action, it seems nonsensical.

10. “Religion is of great comfort to me, especially in times of loss. Too bad it isn’t for you.”
Fair enough. Pharmaceuticals provide great comfort to me. ... Here, you wanna try some?

11. “As you age and face death, you will come to need religion.”
Watched my grandfather die over the course of a week after a heart attack. Watched my grandfather lose his lifelong religion over the course of a week.

12. “You have no right to criticize my religious beliefs.”
You are correct within my workplace. Proselytism and religious criticism is verboten at the risk of my job and livelihood. Outside of my workplace, I got no good reason or even inclination to even consider or give a shit about your religious beliefs, let alone criticize them.


13. “Jesus was merciful.”
"If he existed – and there is still, after centuries of searching, no proof that he did – he was at times a heartless prophet of doom for the sinners he supposedly loved, commanding those who failed to give comfort to the poor to 'depart . . . ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.' ”

My interpretation of The Word there is if you ain't got empathy you're fucked. Like right here, right now.

14. ”You can’t prove there’s no God.”
Proofs are overrated.

15. “My religion is true for me.”
False. Everything is false.

16. “Don’t take everything in the Bible literally."
This atheist still reads the Red Letter Version of the New Testament for inspiration. I am convinced The Christ was an atheist and The Word is save yourself, save the world. Tongue

10/10, would read again

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17-01-2014, 04:47 PM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2014 05:00 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Manual for creating atheists
(15-01-2014 01:54 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So I downloaded the audiobook (I listen to books while I run). I hated this book. The way Peter tries to rally Atheists against Theists with some kind of "its your duty" battle cry seems to only reinforce the stereotype that Atheists are Anti-Theists.

The way he talks about how theists that were originally angry at his "intervention", have later thanked him for showing them the way to doubt rings similar bells of those ministers, priests and preachers who has claimed that people have later thanked them for showing them the way to god.

I was hoping for a creative way to punch holes in the logic protection barriers but I found myself really resenting the way this book was written.

Have you read the book? What are your thoughts?

Read some of the manuals for studying logical fallacies & logic 101 (eg logical fallacy dictionaries)
These will bust all the theistic holy holes.

I agree with some of your points about manual for creating atheists (MFCA) - there are some useful insights in the books and often misconceptions of theists.
Many theists don't believe totally blindly in "faith" but are usually misinformed or lack the skills in critical reasoning. This book characterizes all theists as if they are blind faith believers and this is erroneous.

In my tradition when I was a theist - religious orthodox jew for ~ 7 years this book (MFCA) would have been useless due to Judaism having an in depth sophisticated intellectual tradition - not blind faith. i.e in Judaism faith is a form of TRUST not an epistemology. AMEN in Hebrew does translate as "we trust" and there are many places in the old testament (Torah) to back this up.

There is also a sophisticated in depth intellectual tradition in Islam & Christianity. Especially in Islam with philosophers like Al Ghazali who would view faith as a form of trust like in Judaism - NOT BLIND and NOT and epistemology.

Conclusion - the book is a rant but has some useful points i.e it can be distracting to start going into obscure metaphysics about physicalism or dualism as most people are not academic philosophers and this can get nowhere.

Also highly intellectual religious philosophers can build elaborate systems to overly intellectualize and defend their metaphysical systems - not a case of "blind faith" eg best case consider Bayesian Probability & Swinburne’s P-Inductive & C-Inductive Arguments - these DONT fit well into Peter Boghossian MFCA critique

Books like:
Charles S. Peirce's The Grounds of Validity of the Laws of Logic would be a good foundation - especially against those presuppositionalists apologetics.

Books like:
Divine Hiddenness and Human Reason (Cornell Studies in the Philosophy of Religion) by John L. Schellenberg would be a good anti dote for the unfalsifiable ideas about God being hidden & hence justifying the lack of evidence in apologetics (but technical not "popular" book) eg God allowing free will & therefore my necessity hidden otherwise free-will will be diminished.

Books like:
God in the Age of Science?: A Critique of Religious Reason by Herman Philipse
is an anti dote critique of "the best of theistic case from probability" basically critique of Bayesian Probability & Swinburne’s P-Inductive & C-Inductive Arguments
(also very technical & not an easy read ? a translation from Dutch)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-01-2014, 05:31 PM
RE: Manual for creating atheists
(17-01-2014 01:42 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I can write a manual to make an atheist right here:

1- Make a baby
2- Don't indoctrinate the baby with religious BS
3- ???
4- Profit

Wait, what's phase 3?
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17-01-2014, 05:34 PM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2014 06:06 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Manual for creating atheists
Put it this way - much depends on who you are debating, why.

Peter Boghossian MFCA would NOT be useful for:

1. The Bayesian Probability theists & Swinburne’s P-Inductive & C-Inductive type Arguments (a sophisticated advanced religious philosopher)

2. The presuppositionalists apologists - can be simplistic sounding but "tricky" arguments eg Michael A. Robinson type. (a word dance than might drive you crazy)

3. Theists from highly intellectual traditions - some of these systems can be highly advanced and have a large volume of literature which just calling them blind epistemologists is a ridiculous oversimplification. (eg Jews familiar with guide the perplexed by Maimonides & huge depth of Talmudic debates or muslims engaging in rigorous style of Al Ghazali & some of the medieval philosophers. Whilst ultimately these religious theologies may be incorrect you need a MUCH more robust approach than accusing them of blind faith belief !!!

4: Highly emotive theists: "debate" is pointless ! Weeping

5: People claiming some sort of overwhelming divine experience whether genuine, psychotic or believed with utter conviction after habitual repetition ???
Debate varies with these sorts of people from utterly useless to incredibly successful. Some may argue you cannot debate a solipsist !
On the contrary I experienced some incredible lucid dreams & "out of body experiences" which in my religious days would be messages from God - but these days I see as products of profound imagination gone wild. Many have experienced these spontaneously or on psychedelics or due to certain stresses. The key is the same vivid unusual experience can be interpreted in many ways & without robust evidence one cannot infer God.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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