Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
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30-01-2014, 01:58 PM
Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
I was on FaceBook and saw a post where someone was going to court (likely over divorce and/or custody). She said "Heading to court Sad Prayers please!"

Now, these types of court decisions are made solely by people. So, her request could effectively be summed up as "God, please violate the free will of other people so that I might get a favorable outcome."

Similarly, I've heard people praise God's plan when other human-based decisions go their way.

As far as modern apologetics goes, free will is the main go-to for the problem of evil. So, why is it, in practice, so many of them act as though it doesn't matter? For some of them (like the person mentioned in the court case above), they might not be very well versed in apologetics, so they might not realize what they're saying. As for the second group, I know they buy into the free will thing super hard.
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30-01-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
(30-01-2014 01:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I was on FaceBook and saw a post where someone was going to court (likely over divorce and/or custody). She said "Heading to court Sad Prayers please!"

Now, these types of court decisions are made solely by people. So, her request could effectively be summed up as "God, please violate the free will of other people so that I might get a favorable outcome."

Similarly, I've heard people praise God's plan when other human-based decisions go their way.

As far as modern apologetics goes, free will is the main go-to for the problem of evil. So, why is it, in practice, so many of them act as though it doesn't matter? For some of them (like the person mentioned in the court case above), they might not be very well versed in apologetics, so they might not realize what they're saying. As for the second group, I know they buy into the free will thing super hard.

I'm talking to a girl now who is trying to convince me she has a car because of prayer. Her car broke down, she prayed, her sister gave her a few grand to fix it...how the hell does god get credit for her sister giving her money?

~Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.~
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30-01-2014, 02:03 PM
RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
There are no Christians that actually believe what they claim to believe. They believe they believe but that is self-deception.

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30-01-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
My favorite thing was just before the last presidential election. In the weeks before all my conservative god fearing fb friends kept posting god is control...they were completely convinced Obama would lose the election.

During the election the prayers began....

Then silence.

Then the screams of voter fraud.

Then laughter from me.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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30-01-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
(30-01-2014 02:01 PM)kellyrm Wrote:  I'm talking to a girl now who is trying to convince me she has a car because of prayer. Her car broke down, she prayed, her sister gave her a few grand to fix it...how the hell does god get credit for her sister giving her money?

Apparently, free will is super important in justifying evil in the world unless you need something, or if God wants to spread ten plagues in Egypt.


(30-01-2014 02:03 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  There are no Christians that actually believe what they claim to believe. They believe they believe but that is self-deception.

This reminds me of a post I read elsewhere. The gist of it is that what Christians say in closed groups and what they say to skeptics are entirely different things. So, praying for minor outcomes falls in the first group, and explaining the problem of evil falls clearly in the second.

(Long quote is long, but well worth the read. I love Frank's snark.)
FrankTrollman Wrote:That depends on whether you're talking about what they actually say to each other and believe or whether you're talking about the "sophisticated theology" that they trot out when trying to win arguments against atheists. In their actual theologies, their God is in fact an active participant. Not just in the personal lives of individual believers, but in the day to day workings of literally every single thing everywhere. That is what expressions like "God willing" mean. The idea that God personally fucks with absolutely everything all the time and is in fact omnipresent and omnipotent and every single thing that ever happens no matter how inconsequential or important is in fact directly caused by God. So anything that happens, or could happen in the future, happens only because it is the Will of God that such a thing happens.

Now, you may have noticed that if that were true that you're living in a Skinner Box crafted by someone who literally knows every single thing you would choose when presented with any possible set of stimuli and crafts literally every piece of stimuli you experience for the express purpose of eliciting such a response. And while such a thing is not logically impossible or anything (albeit kind of depressing to contemplate), it is logically incompatible with any meaningful amount of the "free will" that Abrahamic religions constantly wank to. And the moment some Atheist points that out, the Christians and Muslims start busting out the "sophisticated theology".

The difference between regular theology (the actual crap they actually believe) and sophisticated theology is that the sophisticated theology is created for the purpose of being hard to refute by sophisticated people. That means that God instantly stops being a giant bearded leprechaun in the sky that has real effects in the real world and would thus be in some way testable to being a "God of the Gaps". That is: God stops having any and all traits that are in any way falsifiable and the things he (or possibly "it" depending on how "sophisticated" we're getting) controls or even effects are relegated to crap that is for whatever reason currently outside the reach of observation.

So while the actual theology version of God is someone who is a giant glowing bearded White dude who is going to purge the Earth in the "very near future" and lead all of his followers into a giant zombie dance (which is why Christians and Muslims have to be buried whole, so they can be backup dancers during the giant Thriller remake in the very near future), the "sophisticated" version of God only ever did or does anything very long ago, very far away, or in a manner so subtle or tiny that it is completely indistinguishable from not existing at all.

And no, I don't actually think they believe in the sophisticated theology version of their God, because it's trivial and unworthy of worship. The actual heavenly father that they actually talk about in their actual church services would actually be worthy of worship, but since it demonstrably does not exist they are forced to get increasingly "sophisticated" during any discussion with people who ask tough questions.

-Frank


(30-01-2014 02:06 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  My favorite thing was just before the last presidential election. In the weeks before all my conservative god fearing fb friends kept posting god is control...they were completely convinced Obama would lose the election.

During the election the prayers began....

Then silence.

Then the screams of voter fraud.

Then laughter from me.

Takeaway message: voter fraud > God. Gotcha.

Sorry guys. They cheated. It was out of God's hands!
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30-01-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
(30-01-2014 01:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Now, these types of court decisions are made solely by people. So, her request could effectively be summed up as "God, please violate the free will of other people so that I might get a favorable outcome."

RP, I trot these out now and then when they seem apropos.

Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
Ambrose Bierce

Corollary:

Pray, v.: 2- to ask god to change his perfect, preordained plan because you think you know better.
FC

What’s the use of being God if every rundown schmuck with a two dollar prayer can come along and fuck up your divine plan?
George Carlin

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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30-01-2014, 02:32 PM
Re: RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
(30-01-2014 02:28 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Ambrose Bierce

His character in From Dusk To Dawn 3 was hilarious.

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30-01-2014, 02:37 PM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2014 02:50 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
Having never believed, I can't understand it at all. I've never been there, so I can't imagine any of it being real. Much of my life has just been a slow discovery that people really do seem to believe it.

When I was young I always figured no one actually did, but it's what you're expected to say and do. But slowly I've discovered that they do, but it's still difficult for me to get that they actually do. I just deep down think they can't.

...
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30-01-2014, 02:44 PM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2014 03:03 PM by Phil Hill.)
Re: RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
(30-01-2014 02:37 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Having never believed, I can't understand it at all. I've never been there, so I can't imagine any of it being real. Much of my life has just be a slow discovery that people really do seem to believe it.

When I was young I always figured no one actually did, but it's what your expected to say and do. But slowly I've discovered that they do, but it's still difficult for me to get that they actually do. I just deep down think they can't.

OK, point to one Christian that has ALL of their actions consistent with the bible they claim to believe in. To make it easy let's just use the new testament and whatever parts of the old it refers to. Keep in mind that Jesus did say Christians just follow the commandments and also to sell everything you own and his it to the poor.

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30-01-2014, 05:12 PM
RE: Many Christians don't believe their own apologetics
(30-01-2014 01:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I was on FaceBook and saw a post where someone was going to court (likely over divorce and/or custody). She said "Heading to court Sad Prayers please!"

Now, these types of court decisions are made solely by people. So, her request could effectively be summed up as "God, please violate the free will of other people so that I might get a favorable outcome."

Similarly, I've heard people praise God's plan when other human-based decisions go their way.

As far as modern apologetics goes, free will is the main go-to for the problem of evil. So, why is it, in practice, so many of them act as though it doesn't matter? For some of them (like the person mentioned in the court case above), they might not be very well versed in apologetics, so they might not realize what they're saying. As for the second group, I know they buy into the free will thing super hard.
Free will doesn't need to be 100% for purposes of a PoE defense.
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