Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
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05-12-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
(05-12-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 01:47 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Heaven, dragon, seven heads and ten horns...
Yup, scientific absurdities. Yes

So what's your point? Consider

What empirical evidence or logical reasoning have you used (and the website used) to conclude that life forms in Heaven are in line with Earth's carbon-based life forms?

None, and you missed it. I listed heaven as a scientific absurdity which means there is nothing to compare.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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05-12-2013, 04:19 PM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
(05-12-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 01:47 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Heaven, dragon, seven heads and ten horns...
Yup, scientific absurdities. Yes

So what's your point? Consider

What empirical evidence or logical reasoning have you used (and the website used) to conclude that life forms in Heaven are in line with Earth's carbon-based life forms?
You just outed yourself man, you're a poe! I had my doubts but this cements your troll status. Big Grin

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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05-12-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
Both useful and colorful! I'm totally digging this! Any idea if there's anything similar to this for other holy books?

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05-12-2013, 10:03 PM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
I couldn't find anything, yet. A shame. Would be great!

(05-12-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 01:47 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Heaven, dragon, seven heads and ten horns...
Yup, scientific absurdities. Yes

What empirical evidence or logical reasoning have you used (and the website used) to conclude that life forms in Heaven are in line with Earth's carbon-based life forms?

Lol, again the same old argument. You are using an unprovable assumption, in this case that a Heaven exists. In addition, you assume that the life-forms in "heaven" are not carbon-based (completely unnecessary assumption). And then, you expect Impuls to provide evidence...

But actually, you have answered your own question by asking for EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. There is no record of an alternate dimension called "Heaven" (except in the "holy" books, referring to which would be a circular argument, so REFRAIN FROM DOING SO!). There is no physical basis for a heaven to exist. There is no record of a dragon or a seven-headed dragon. There is no biological basis for a seven-headed dragon to exist.

In analogy, if a person said:
In my scripture of prophecies, it says that a three headed golden pig with 5 wings will descend from the walhalla dimension and soar across the skies, pooping gold and silver, and henceforth there shell be no poverty!

I assume, you would ask that person to share is drugs with you, because whatever drugs he took, they must be great!

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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05-12-2013, 10:20 PM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
derp;



Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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06-12-2013, 12:39 AM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
I don’t mind these issues being brought up- and I even spent a lot of time browsing the site- and debated, but I’m puzzled at some of it where instead of actually presenting ‘contradictions’ it’s just a bunch of verses about the same thing and pretty much illustrates what I’ve said above elsewhere not even caring about the context. Here’s an example from the website about what animals are good to eat. I’ll give you the verses and my response as to why they’re not contradictions and how even a basic level of thinking can clear it up. Don’t worry, I’ll be quick. In some cases I’ve expanded it a bit to give some context and used the NIV Translation for a bit more clarity.

God giving dietary Laws
Genesis 1:29
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Genesis 9:3
Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
Deuteronomy 14:7-8
7 However, of those that chew the cud or that have a divided hoof you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the hyrax. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a divided hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. 8 The pig is also unclean; although it has a divided hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.
Leviticus 11:2-4
2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.
4 “‘There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.’

So at the start of Genesis, God has created man and given him rule over the earth and everything in it. There is also no death or corruption in the world and God gives man his food from the plants. In Genesis 9, Noah and his family are told to make a new beginning and now all things are permissible to eat (except for eating what still has its lifeblood in it). Why does He do this? On the most basic level, because He can I suppose. Why shouldn’t he? New covenant, new boundaries.
Then in the midst of distinguishing the Israelites as a holy people, still more is added in the food and drink laws. Basically: chews the cud and has cloven foot= good. Only has one of these= bad.
Sometimes I really wish we had a Rabbi on here. OT food and drink laws were never my forte and to have a Jewish perspective on Rabbinical texts would be useful for everyone.

Unrelated to the giving of Dietary Laws
Proverbs 23.20
Saying 16
19 Listen, my son, and be wise,
and set your heart on the right path:
20 Do not join those who drink too much wine
or gorge themselves on meat,
21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,
and drowsiness clothes them in rags
Really good advice when you think about it. Basically ‘setting your sights high leads to success, self-indulgence and low standards lead to failure.’ Not too sure how it counts as a contradiction with the rest of the verses.

Daniel 1:8
But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way.

Daniel and his three fellow captives abstained from the royal food and wine because it would have violated his dietary laws and because it would have been offered to other gods. It’s an affirmation of the laws, not a contradiction.


The New Testament – The New Covenant and Dietary Laws (aka Christianity)
Mark 7:18-20
18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them.

Luke 10:8
7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’

Pretty straightforward, the new covenant comes with the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus. New Covenant (which includes gentile nations) new dietary laws (which include gentile nations)


Acts 10:9-13
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Again, this is the affirmation to Peter who was heading the Jewish ministry that gentiles were included and that no pressure from that quarter should be extended to converts to apply to laws which were not part of their cultural background.


1 Corinthians 10:25
The Believer’s Freedom
23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[a]
27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.

Romans 14:2
The Weak and the Strong
14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

These last things pretty much say the same thing. Freedom in food not only reflects the new covenant but means there’s one less barrier in relating to the people around you. In the same way, there’s no pressure in this freedom because freedom in one quarter might lead to spiritual failure in other aspects. It’s an ‘everyone at their own pace’ approach.


Now if someone approached the topic this way progress could be made: 'OK, so the OT is full of strict dietary laws for keeping pure and holy, suddenly an observant Jewish man who claims to be the Son of God is saying everything is permissible to eat. On top of that, now His followers are leaving behind those laws and going on about a 'new covenant' even though they're supposed to still be a part of Judaism. Why aren’t they forcing converts to change their eating habits? What's to say they're not just twisting it to make themselves more appealing to outsiders? Doesn't it contradict everything the Bible's said up to this point about relating to God?'

Then we could talk about the nature of covenants, Jesus' teachings and claims, the introduction of Gentile mission, and so many things that could deepen the knowledge of everyone involved.But just throwing a few lines together because someone here eats meat and someone else is eating veggies and calling it a contradiction isn't even trying to make a credible argument.

H
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06-12-2013, 01:14 AM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2013 01:29 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
(06-12-2013 12:39 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  God giving dietary Laws
Genesis 1:29
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Genesis 9:3
Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
Deuteronomy 14:7-8
7 However, of those that chew the cud or that have a divided hoof you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the hyrax. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a divided hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. 8 The pig is also unclean; although it has a divided hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.
Leviticus 11:2-4
2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.
4 “‘There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.’

So at the start of Genesis, God has created man and given him rule over the earth and everything in it. There is also no death or corruption in the world and God gives man his food from the plants. In Genesis 9, Noah and his family are told to make a new beginning and now all things are permissible to eat (except for eating what still has its lifeblood in it). Why does He do this? On the most basic level, because He can I suppose. Why shouldn’t he? New covenant, new boundaries.
Then in the midst of distinguishing the Israelites as a holy people, still more is added in the food and drink laws. Basically: chews the cud and has cloven foot= good. Only has one of these= bad.

As you pointed out yourself, the dietery restrictions in Genesis are in contradiction to those in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. You are not disputing them to be contradictions, but explaining why there are these contradictions. You should notice that for yourself.

Also, please notice that not every single citation has to contradict the others. A group of citations contradict another group of citations, that is how it works.

In your attempt to explain the contradiction, you indulge yourself in assumptions, which I find quite ridiculous. "Because god has flooded the earth, everything becomes OK to eat. And the reason for that is... because he can." I would expect that kind of reasoning from a 5 year old child.

And you believe that Israelites are holy people? I hope you will correct my impression on this, because if you do, your conception of reality is utterly misguided... I hope you merely offered an explanation without believing in its full content yourself.

Also, do you truly BELIEVE that there was a time in our history, where there was no death and corruption? Do you truly think that is an accurate picture of reality? If there was no death and corruption, why eat? WHY does god feel the necessity to flood the earth, if there was no death and corruption? And even if flooded, why should people die? There is no death anyway! Your whole explenatio is just so insanely ridiculous...

Final point: Why does God first choose to create unpure animals, installs all the dietery restrictions, and then makes the animals pure again in order to lift the restrictions? What an arbitrary god, I must say! At least, the muslim god remains consequent (in this respect)...

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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06-12-2013, 01:58 AM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
Yeah, I noticed the clumsy beginning Blush
I guess I was a little thrown by the randomness of some of the quotes, so I'll concede to your point about single vs group quotes in looking at contradictions.
OK, let me put it this way. In some states in America it is legal to use marijuana. It used to be illiegal. Does the fact it that it used to be one law and is now another cancel out the reality or validity of those laws in their respective times? No, it's a progression in the law in how it relates and responds to the society which it governs. So if we even just divide it into OT vs NT dietary laws, it isn't so much a contradiction as progression of the law in response to God's covenants.
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06-12-2013, 02:06 AM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
(06-12-2013 01:58 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  Yeah, I noticed the clumsy beginning Blush
I guess I was a little thrown by the randomness of some of the quotes, so I'll concede to your point about single vs group quotes in looking at contradictions.
OK, let me put it this way. In some states in America it is legal to use marijuana. It used to be illiegal. Does the fact it that it used to be one law and is now another cancel out the reality or validity of those laws in their respective times? No, it's a progression in the law in how it relates and responds to the society which it governs. So if we even just divide it into OT vs NT dietary laws, it isn't so much a contradiction as progression of the law in response to God's covenants.
What's the difference between man-made laws and god-given laws again? Drinking Beverage

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06-12-2013, 02:18 AM
RE: Mapping the Contradictions in the bible
God was obviously some mortal warlord, rambling off his life learnt morals (good or bad).
Probably advised by his learned men around him about what was known to be most accurate in science at the time, flat disk earth, sun orbits the earth, moon is a light, stars are not suns, layer of water above the sky etc.

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