Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
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21-08-2016, 06:37 PM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
Matt Finney,

You don't appear to have read the related thread, posted by Blowjob, called "Open the Pod Bay Doors, Hal", in which he made most of the same arguments he makes here, and we countered them.

I presented a clear argument for why, if you and I were attached in such a way that your life depended upon my body in order to sustain itself, I would still have the choice to sever that connection even though it results in your death. YOU. A full-grown, living person, with well-established sentience and rights. The reverse would also be true; I have no right to grow or sustain my life based upon your body. It would at all times be your right to say when to continue keeping me alive... or not.

So even if we grant the full measure of his/your "fetus = baby!" premise, the argument still does not follow that the "baby" has a right to life which surpasses the mother's right to determine what her body is to be used for.

It's really that simple.

Now, there is an argument to be made that past the point of viability outside the womb, the fetus has developed enough to not be dependent upon the mother's body for support, and that the rights society grants to its members may attach at that point... but such an argument would require that said society also completely take over the costs of NICU care for that baby once it was removed from the unwilling mother, and locate foster or adoptive care for the child as it grows (despite the claims of Pro-Lifers, only white babies are easily adopted out; most brown-skinned kids wind up in foster care at best).

As for your "no right and wrong" argument, I would say that these legal principles and rights are based on well-established doctrines, which would require us to abrogate entirely in order to force women to carry a pregnancy to term against their will. If you have not read the Supreme Court's rulings in the Roe v. Wade case, I invite you to do so. They lay out the arguments quite clearly.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-08-2016, 09:33 PM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(21-08-2016 06:18 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(21-08-2016 02:58 PM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  There's no such thing as the unborn

I have, in a real-life argument over the topic of abortion, laughed at a person who used the term "unborn" by quipping that "I suppose then I'm undead. Awesome! I kinda always wanted to be a lich."

That is freaking awesome i'm so using it

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22-08-2016, 01:56 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(21-08-2016 11:35 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Heywood would have us to believe that it is morally wrong to abort a fetus for any reason what-so-ever. The pro-lifers are saying that they believe they know what’s right for everyone and because the other people are 'wrong' their views shouldn't count. The pro-choice folks say that there is no solid right or wrong choice, so it should be an individual decision made by the mother. No one should be compelled to have an abortion under the pro-choice model.

I am okay with abortions in case of say an ectopic pregnancy and perhaps in the case of preeclampsia.

Your argument, that there is no solid right or wrong choice, can be applied to adult human beings as well. Sometimes it is okay to kill and adult human being and sometimes it isn't. So lets make it an individual decision instead of a societal one. Of course that is silly. You realize it is silly in the case of adults. The reason you do not believe it is silly in the case of the unborn is because you feel the unborn are not worthy of moral protection. All you are really doing is try to obfuscate the fact that your morality is based on what you feel and not any actual axioms.

In the case of an adult human being killing another adult human being we don't make it a individual one but rather a societal one because most of time when an adult kills another adult, it is for the wrong reasons. Most abortions happen as a matter of convenience and not for a good reason.....like an ectopic pregnancy where the only option is to abort.

Last, I know two women who were forced by their fathers to get abortions when they became pregnant as teenagers.....so it is not always the woman's choice.
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22-08-2016, 03:35 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am okay with abortions in case of say an ectopic pregnancy and perhaps in the case of preeclampsia.

That's nice. Thumbsup

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Your argument, that there is no solid right or wrong choice, can be applied to adult human beings as well.

No... it simply can not.

This is a point you continually dodge, ignore and otherwise neglect.

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Sometimes it is okay to kill and adult human being and sometimes it isn't. So lets make it an individual decision instead of a societal one.

Except... we are not, ever, making an 'Individual' decision. It is pretty much always at a Government level that such decisions are made. The Government that governs at the will of the people etc....

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Of course that is silly.

So.. you're admitting to making a stupid statement to further your views and ideas? Consider


(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You realize it is silly in the case of adults. The reason you do not believe it is silly in the case of the unborn is because you feel the unborn are not worthy of moral protection.

Now you're projecting what other people think onto other people. No

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  All you are really doing is try to obfuscate the fact that your morality is based on what you feel and not any actual axioms.

No... am pretty sure people are showing who is doing what on this thread and others....

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  In the case of an adult human being killing another adult human being we don't make it a individual one but rather a societal one because most of time when an adult kills another adult, it is for the wrong reasons.

Again, this is not atually the case....

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Most abortions happen as a matter of convenience and not for a good reason.....like an ectopic pregnancy where the only option is to abort.

Again, this is not actually the case.

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Last, I know two women who were forced by their fathers to get abortions when they became pregnant as teenagers.....so it is not always the woman's choice.

Oh, thank you for the personal anecdote and my sympathies to those unfortunately involved.

Though your inclusion of said anecdote does more to other reads as to your personality and motivations. No
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22-08-2016, 03:58 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(21-08-2016 06:37 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Matt Finney,

You don't appear to have read the related thread, posted by Blowjob, called "Open the Pod Bay Doors, Hal", in which he made most of the same arguments he makes here, and we countered them.

The "Open the Pod Bay Doors, Hal" thread was to show that arguments like the "unconscious violinist" are wrong.

My participation in this thread started out as commenting Rubio's position is consistent and you should not fault him for being consistent....and you should not demagogue as Angele did. My participation later morphed into defending the position that a human Zygote is a human being. Which I should not have to defend as it is a commonly accepted a human zygote is an organism unto itself and that it is of the species homo sapiens sapiens therefore it is most certainly a human being.

Sadly I met with a lot of baseless emotional responses.
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22-08-2016, 05:26 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am okay with abortions in case of say an ectopic pregnancy and perhaps in the case of preeclampsia.

How noble of you.

The problem is that religious groups don't differentiate.

They want to outlaw ALL abortion.
They want to ban ALL contraception.

Fine. If they want an all or nothing game, then make it ALL legal.

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Your argument, that there is no solid right or wrong choice, can be applied to adult human beings as well. Sometimes it is okay to kill and adult human being and sometimes it isn't.

Strawman. The statement was that there is no objective morality.

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  So lets make it an individual decision instead of a societal one. Of course that is silly. You realize it is silly in the case of adults.

Demonstrably wrong. There are times that society judges it acceptable to kill another human being. War, self defense, state executions, etc. Individuals do have the right to take a life, but the circumstances of the situation are then judged by society and the legality is determined.

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The reason you do not believe it is silly in the case of the unborn is because you feel the unborn are not worthy of moral protection.

Once again, you are demonstrably wrong. The only person who has a "right" to terminate a pregnancy is the mother. As noted earlier it is a crime to kill a fetus, for example in a DUI accident.

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  All you are really doing is try to obfuscate the fact that your morality is based on what you feel and not any actual axioms.

An individual persons reaction to moral choices is often hard to interpret. Choices are often made on the subconscious level and the reasoning behind them and the consistency of such choices are difficult to pin down.

That is why we make laws and write them down.

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Most abortions happen as a matter of convenience and not for a good reason.....like an ectopic pregnancy where the only option is to abort.

"Most" is bullshit. Show some citations from REPUTABLE sources, not some pro-life student group.

(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Last, I know two women who were forced by their fathers to get abortions when they became pregnant as teenagers.....so it is not always the woman's choice.

I'm hesitant to respond to this, given the levels of dishonesty you've already exhibited. "Princeton.edu" if you recall...

However, in the case of minors, the parents do have legal right to make medical decisions for their children.

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22-08-2016, 05:28 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(22-08-2016 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Sadly I met with a lot of baseless emotional responses.

Provoking an emotional response is the primary gratification of internet trolling, is it not?
Which, I may remind you, is your main reason for being here, by your own admission.

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22-08-2016, 05:41 AM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2016 05:44 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(22-08-2016 03:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Which I should not have to defend as it is a commonly accepted a human zygote is an organism unto itself and that it is of the species homo sapiens sapiens therefore it is most certainly a human being.

Sadly I met with a lot of baseless emotional responses.

Totally false.
You call anything you disagree with an "emotional response", and you are a total idiot.
A human zygote is obviously not an "organism unto itself". You made no argument, all you did was make an idiotic assertion. It is a POTENTIAL human being. A clump of cells with no brain and no neural tube is not a "human being". It's like saying one cannot cut out an appendix, (a clump of human cells), as it's a "human being". Blowme ... you are a very stupid man, and your need to interfere with the reproductive decisions of young women is actually very creepy. Very creepy.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-08-2016, 05:55 AM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2016 07:43 AM by OrdoSkeptica.)
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
so much to debunk but i have so little desire too waste my time kicking a dead horse so i'll just tear down 7 for now

1.having human DNA does't make it a full human

2.there is no such thing as a potential human it's fully human or it's not

3.nope it's not a independent organism it's functions are totally reliant on the mother if you disagree tear one out and let's see how long it lasts

4.wanna know what you and your made up teens father have in common you both wanna control a woman's body your two sides of the same arrogant coin

5.even if abortion are about convenience (something you never back up ) that has no bearing to weather or not it should be allowed

6.there are circumstances were killing and adult is legal (an adult and a fetus are two completely different things as point out and proven)

7.its you who has no axioms and is all about feelings

8.you have no business telling other people what is a 'Good' or "Necessary" reason for an abortion is

9.individuals are granted the right over life by society all the time (when it comes to abortion the mother has total rights over the fetus it part of her till it's out of her)

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22-08-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(22-08-2016 01:56 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(21-08-2016 11:35 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Heywood would have us to believe that it is morally wrong to abort a fetus for any reason what-so-ever. The pro-lifers are saying that they believe they know what’s right for everyone and because the other people are 'wrong' their views shouldn't count. The pro-choice folks say that there is no solid right or wrong choice, so it should be an individual decision made by the mother. No one should be compelled to have an abortion under the pro-choice model.

I am okay with abortions in case of say an ectopic pregnancy and perhaps in the case of preeclampsia.

Your argument, that there is no solid right or wrong choice, can be applied to adult human beings as well. Sometimes it is okay to kill and adult human being and sometimes it isn't. So lets make it an individual decision instead of a societal one. Of course that is silly. You realize it is silly in the case of adults. The reason you do not believe it is silly in the case of the unborn is because you feel the unborn are not worthy of moral protection. All you are really doing is try to obfuscate the fact that your morality is based on what you feel and not any actual axioms.

In the case of an adult human being killing another adult human being we don't make it a individual one but rather a societal one because most of time when an adult kills another adult, it is for the wrong reasons. Most abortions happen as a matter of convenience and not for a good reason.....like an ectopic pregnancy where the only option is to abort.

Last, I know two women who were forced by their fathers to get abortions when they became pregnant as teenagers.....so it is not always the woman's choice.

All of the people agree that once a fetus is born, it’s a human worthy of protection. (I’m not looking that up, and we can squabble about it if you find contradictory information). Only some of the people think that status should be conferred onto a fetus, an embryo or a blastocyst. I can respect that you view a fetus as a person, but I don’t agree with you. How I form my view is not a subject for debate. You can like it, or you can choose not to like it.

The law, as it’s written, protects both of our views, but you are trying to change my position. I am not under any threat of losing my rights, so the onus is on you to change my view, not on me to cave in to social pressure. I don’t think it’s immoral to abort a fetus and I also don’t particularly care that you think it is immoral. Your view doesn’t impact me and your opinion of me isn’t highly regarded (nor is anyone else's... it's nothing personal). That’s a stance you must understand and address to be successful.

If your goal is to curtail or stop future abortions from happening, I would recommend finding out from pro-choice people what you can say or do that might motivate them to carry their fetuses to term. (Protip: people are motivated by having their wants and needs met.) Shaming people or telling them they’re immoral or somehow at fault for finding themselves with an unwanted pregnancy has limited efficacy. Anyone who has strong opinions or feels confident in their own morality or decision making skills will be unmoved by this argument.

Regarding cases where teenagers are forced to have abortions against their will, I absolutely feel that their rights should be protected. I just don't believe that my rights should have to be forfeited to do that. I think there's probably another solution which can protect all parties (again, a fetus is not a party in my view).
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