Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
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08-08-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 01:45 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You guys are the crack pots as evidenced by your absolutely retarded thinking.

You would be an expert on that subject, wouldn't you?

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08-08-2016, 06:35 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 12:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-08-2016 03:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Sure, let's not think about the kind of 'life' the child could have.

What an ass.

If a birth defect alone is enough to justify killing an unborn child wouldn't it also be enough to justify killing a child that was born with a defect?

As usual you can't look at the issue at hand. You have to reach, and reach, and stretch as far out as you can to see how far you can push an issue.

No one has suggested killing babies born with defects. Microcephaly has no cure, no fix, no hope of getting better. It's not like a fetus that has a cleft palate or a club foot, both of which can be repaired. This defect is a stunting of the brain that is never going to allow the child to have any kind of life other than one of continuous care with no improvement. What sort of life is that for the child?

You don't care. You have drawn your line in the sand and said no exceptions.

I don't agree with abortion as a method of birth control. But I do agree that there are medical reasons that affect the developing fetus and conditions where the mother's life is in danger that make abortion a sensible and acceptable medical decision.

Rubio (and you) is trying to make sure that no matter how dire the circumstances, an abortion is not an available option.

I have to assume that you are also against taking a person off life support when there is no hope of them recovering or when the brain activity has ceased. We can keep bodies pumping for a long time with machinery but does that constitute life?

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08-08-2016, 06:43 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2016 07:24 AM by onlinebiker.)
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 06:35 AM)Anjele Wrote:  
(08-08-2016 12:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If a birth defect alone is enough to justify killing an unborn child wouldn't it also be enough to justify killing a child that was born with a defect?

As usual you can't look at the issue at hand. You have to reach, and reach, and stretch as far out as you can to see how far you can push an issue.

No one has suggested killing babies born with defects. Microcephaly has no cure, no fix, no hope of getting better. It's not like a fetus that has a cleft palate or a club foot, both of which can be repaired. This defect is a stunting of the brain that is never going to allow the child to have any kind of life other than one of continuous care with no improvement. What sort of life is that for the child?

You don't care. You have drawn your line in the sand and said no exceptions.

I don't agree with abortion as a method of birth control. But I do agree that there are medical reasons that affect the developing fetus and conditions where the mother's life is in danger that make abortion a sensible and acceptable medical decision.

Rubio (and you) is trying to make sure that no matter how dire the circumstances, an abortion is not an available option.

I have to assume that you are also against taking a person off life support when there is no hope of them recovering or when the brain activity has ceased. We can keep bodies pumping for a long time with machinery but does that constitute life?

Anj -- you've hit on the crux of the matter that's the sticky point....

"Life" as it's come to be defined - isn't a heartbeat, or the ability to breathe --- it's about self-awareness and cognition...

The fetus and the persistent vegetative state patient both rely on a "life support system" --- but neither are truly "Alive" if you use the same standard to define "life"....

So -- if you want to be consistent -- and guarantee the "life" of every potential fetus to be born -- you better keep every old codger and brain trauma victim "alive" via mechanical assistance - forever.........

"Pro-life" huh???

Let's have some consistency, ok????

.......................................

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08-08-2016, 07:00 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 12:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Birth defects have nothing to do with whether or not a woman should have the right to kill her unborn child.

Oh dear, you really don't give a shit about that fetus once it is a baby, do you? If you are not able to give a decent home to these children, for life, then shut up. Even though these babies are probably never going to be conscious in the way you and I are, they do have recurring physical needs to stay alive. So, you just want them to be born and then the hell with them, or how do you figure this?

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08-08-2016, 07:03 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 12:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-08-2016 03:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Sure, let's not think about the kind of 'life' the child could have.

What an ass.

If a birth defect alone is enough to justify killing an unborn child wouldn't it also be enough to justify killing a child that was born with a defect?

You see in your mind(it seems to me anyways) that you don't care that the unborn child has a birth defect...the fact it is unborn is enough to justify allowing the mother kill to it. Rubio takes a different perspective. He doesn't accept your premise that just because the child is unborn that justifies allowing the mother to kill it.

Should mothers be allowed to kill offspring that have birth defects? Rubio thinks not and what exactly is wrong with that?

You are just being a demagogue by attempting to conflate arguments for abortion rights with birth defects. Birth defects have nothing to do with whether or not a woman should have the right to kill her unborn child. So please stop pretending they do.

Always you religious idiots do the "reductio ad absurdam".
Stop using legal and emotionally charged (dishonest) words.... "killing" and "offspring". They are not correct, and you are a lying SOB. Mothers don't "kill offspring". A fetus is no more an "unborn child" than it is an "unborn adult".
Guess who is the retarded one here ?

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08-08-2016, 11:48 AM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
Quote:If a birth defect alone is enough to justify killing an unborn child wouldn't it also be enough to justify killing a child that was born with a defect?


Yes... if the parents so decide. And what fucking business is it of yours, Woodie? Are you going to take care of it after its born and the parents are dead or will you sit there whining like the rest of the conservatard shits about where their taxes are going.

Try, for once in your fucking life, not to be a phony.

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08-08-2016, 12:47 PM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 06:35 AM)Anjele Wrote:  As usual you can't look at the issue at hand. You have to reach, and reach, and stretch as far out as you can to see how far you can push an issue.

No one has suggested killing babies born with defects. Microcephaly has no cure, no fix, no hope of getting better. It's not like a fetus that has a cleft palate or a club foot, both of which can be repaired. This defect is a stunting of the brain that is never going to allow the child to have any kind of life other than one of continuous care with no improvement. What sort of life is that for the child?

I agree with every word you said. And, I agree with you on abortion generally.

That said, I have a question: what about kids that ARE born with Microcephaly? And, I think this was sort of HJ's point. So, you now have a baby who has serious health issues, no chance of improvement, a short, miserable life span, and parents (or parent) who can go bankrupt dealing with this.

So, now what?

Btw, this question is not directed at Ang and I have no idea what the answer is.

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08-08-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 12:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-08-2016 03:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Sure, let's not think about the kind of 'life' the child could have.

What an ass.

If a birth defect alone is enough to justify killing an unborn child wouldn't it also be enough to justify killing a child that was born with a defect?

You see in your mind(it seems to me anyways) that you don't care that the unborn child has a birth defect...the fact it is unborn is enough to justify allowing the mother kill to it. Rubio takes a different perspective. He doesn't accept your premise that just because the child is unborn that justifies allowing the mother to kill it.

Should mothers be allowed to kill offspring that have birth defects? Rubio thinks not and what exactly is wrong with that?

You are just being a demagogue by attempting to conflate arguments for abortion rights with birth defects. Birth defects have nothing to do with whether or not a woman should have the right to kill her unborn child. So please stop pretending they do.

Sorry to interject here, but there’s this tendency that Christians have to assume that Christianity is somehow the only ticket in town. As if their fucked up sense of morality is so awesome that they’re qualified to speak on everyone else’s behalf. I know you’re here on this forum to challenge the atheist’s way of thinking and “educate” them, but I feel maybe this is a good opportunity for me to challenge your way of thinking and educate you.

Christians think that everyone should live according to Christian values, and they’re happy to attempt to pass laws to force people to follow along with their Christian ideology. The way I see it, if a Christian doesn’t want to carry out an abortion, then the Christian (and the Christian alone) should feel welcome to hold themselves to that value. But guess what? My religious freedom also counts, and according to my religion, there are times when abortions are appropriate even times when abortions are required (for Jews who choose to live Torah observant lifestyles).

Exodus 21:22 And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders]. (23) But if there is a fatality, you shall give a life for a life…

The above passage applies to an accidental miscarriage rather than a deliberate abortion, but what we learn here is that according to Judaism, the life of the mother has more value than the life of a fetus. For killing the mother, a perpetrator shall receive capital punishment, but for killing the fetus alone, the punishment is only a fine. Clearly, Torah law doesn’t count the fetus as a human life. In fact, it's considered only potential life. Regarding abortion, Talmudic law (which applies only to Jews) calls for the destruction of a fetus if it threatens the mother’s life. The mother has life, but the fetus does not.

In a modern setting, there are many Rabbis who feel that abortion should be acceptable in the case when the future human’s quality of life is severely compromised or if the defects are going to be so severe that they will cause severe emotional strain on the mother. I hold by this view and I find it inhumane not to stop such a birth.

To me, the Christian position is like child abuse. Self-righteous Christians are trying to deny my religious liberty and they're forcing some poor soul to have to live out an existence on this earth in a body that fails them. They're depriving them of the opportunity for health and a happy, fulfilling future. Sorry, but I don’t want anything to do with Christians or their messed up world view and I certainly don’t appreciate them trying to push their values onto me.
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08-08-2016, 01:25 PM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 12:47 PM)BnW Wrote:  That said, I have a question: what about kids that ARE born with Microcephaly? And, I think this was sort of HJ's point. So, you now have a baby who has serious health issues, no chance of improvement, a short, miserable life span, and parents (or parent) who can go bankrupt dealing with this.

So, now what?

Btw, this question is not directed at Ang and I have no idea what the answer is.

I do not know what I'd do in that situation but I wouldn't say anything against parents that decided to euthanize rather than endure the emotional and financial strain. I also wouldn't tell them that they should euthanize. It would be a horrific position to be in and there is no "right" answer.

The only thing I'm sure of is that the government needs to stay out of it and that the self-righteous religious asshats need to mind their own fucking business.

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08-08-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: Marco Rubio...no abortions for Zika infected pregnant women.
(08-08-2016 12:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-08-2016 03:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Sure, let's not think about the kind of 'life' the child could have.

What an ass.

If a birth defect alone is enough to justify killing an unborn child wouldn't it also be enough to justify killing a child that was born with a defect?

You see in your mind(it seems to me anyways) that you don't care that the unborn child has a birth defect...the fact it is unborn is enough to justify allowing the mother kill to it. Rubio takes a different perspective. He doesn't accept your premise that just because the child is unborn that justifies allowing the mother to kill it.

Should mothers be allowed to kill offspring that have birth defects? Rubio thinks not and what exactly is wrong with that?

You are just being a demagogue by attempting to conflate arguments for abortion rights with birth defects. Birth defects have nothing to do with whether or not a woman should have the right to kill her unborn child. So please stop pretending they do.

So how do you justify spontaneous abortions with your god belief?

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