Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
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12-11-2013, 09:42 AM
Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
A story on The Blaze about the downfall of faith in America.

It is interesting, because on the way into work today I was listening to The Atheist Experience podcast where they debated two callers about morality. I really do not see how Christians equate non-belief with lack of morality.

And I find it ironic that many fundamentalist Christians are anti big government because they don't want authority in their lives, but willingly embrace a system of morality based solely on authoritarianism.

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12-11-2013, 10:14 AM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 09:42 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  It is interesting, because on the way into work today I was listening to The Atheist Experience podcast where they debated two callers about morality. I really do not see how Christians equate non-belief with lack of morality.

This largely comes from either a failure in understanding subjective morality (I fell into this same trap during college) or from trying to vilify the outside group. Making things very black-and-white (and sitting firmly in the white side of things) can make a lot of difficult topics easy. It also becomes easy to demonize anyone who would say the situation is actually grey-and-grey.


(12-11-2013 09:42 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  And I find it ironic that many fundamentalist Christians are anti big government because they don't want authority in their lives, but willingly embrace a system of morality based solely on authoritarianism.

Well, the issue of religion and politics is nuanced and complex. In the US, the Republican party is the one associated with "small government" (at least, in terms of social safety net programs). As the conservative voting bloc continued to shrink over the years, they had to attract more people to their base. A lot of these groups really have nothing in common other than conservative identity. The party consists of very wealthy people, the religious right, libertarians, and a lot of racist people.

Now, it's not that racism in itself is a conservative or liberal ideology, but so far as the US is concerned, it does have an interesting bit of history. The south has had problems with racism for quite some time. Up until the 60s, the south was solidly Democratic, and had been for quite some time. The KKK was actually founded by people who primarily voted for Democrats. During the rise of the civil rights movement in the 60s, liberal voters from the north started to champion the cause. This gave birth to the southern strategy, which lead to the Republicans trying to pick the south out from under the Democrats by pitching anti-civil rights politics. It worked remarkably well. Within a decade, the south had switched decisively from blue to red, and has largely remained that way since.

The south strongly overlaps geographically with the Bible belt, which is a heavy bastion of fundamentalist voters. This new conservative alliance effectively created the "religious right".

So, it's not that religious people themselves have any reason to be anti-government, but more so that they are statistically more likely to be draw to the party that also spouts a lot of anti-government rhetoric.
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12-11-2013, 12:22 PM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 10:14 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, it's not that religious people themselves have any reason to be anti-government, but more so that they are statistically more likely to be draw to the party that also spouts a lot of anti-government rhetoric.

It is very nuanced, and I believe many Atheists should realize that. I consider myself a Penn Jillette Atheist. I am firmly libertarian in my beliefs. I am left on social issues such as gay marriage, drug legalization, etc.

But I'm also firmly pro individual in terms of monetary policy. I believe that any government that has a power to control your life, either the Republicans who want to control your bedroom, or Democrats who want to tinker with the market, leaves the room for total control everywhere. Regardless...

I do get a bit discouraged with podcasts like Atheist Experience and Dogma Debate when they ridicule any sort of non Democrat party mindset.

I think they would get more converts to their cause and to rational thinking if they stuck to dogma and religious discussions instead of social justice and everything else.

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12-11-2013, 02:41 PM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 09:42 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  A story on The Blaze about the downfall of faith in America.

It is interesting, because on the way into work today I was listening to The Atheist Experience podcast where they debated two callers about morality. I really do not see how Christians equate non-belief with lack of morality.

And I find it ironic that many fundamentalist Christians are anti big government because they don't want authority in their lives, but willingly embrace a system of morality based solely on authoritarianism.

Benign authoritarianism. A dictator who is just, kind and etc., and dispenses kindness and justice on the basis of omniscience regarding every person's actions, intentions, and motives, is okay by me. The issue is atheists want freedom from all authority in general. Yes? No?
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12-11-2013, 04:22 PM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 02:41 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(12-11-2013 09:42 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  A story on The Blaze about the downfall of faith in America.

It is interesting, because on the way into work today I was listening to The Atheist Experience podcast where they debated two callers about morality. I really do not see how Christians equate non-belief with lack of morality.

And I find it ironic that many fundamentalist Christians are anti big government because they don't want authority in their lives, but willingly embrace a system of morality based solely on authoritarianism.

Benign authoritarianism. A dictator who is just, kind and etc., and dispenses kindness and justice on the basis of omniscience regarding every person's actions, intentions, and motives, is okay by me. The issue is atheists want freedom from all authority in general. Yes? No?

Authority from a being that doesn't exist? Your question is nonsense.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-11-2013, 04:26 PM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 02:41 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The issue is atheists want freedom from all authority in general. Yes? No?

No. Drinking Beverage

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12-11-2013, 10:43 PM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 02:41 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Benign authoritarianism. A dictator who is just, kind and etc., and dispenses kindness and justice on the basis of omniscience regarding every person's actions, intentions, and motives, is okay by me. The issue is atheists want freedom from all authority in general. Yes? No?

I may be new, but I've read the forums for awhile and the one thing I have found that sticks out the most is how many different opinions each person has on here. The only solid connection is the unbelief in a god/gods. Of course this isn't applicable to the few theists here.

So trying to generalize all the atheists into one conglomerate is kind of a waste of your time.

Smile

Also, I happen to think some government is necessary, so no, I personally don't want freedom from all authority in general.
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13-11-2013, 12:11 AM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 10:43 PM)Penumbrae Wrote:  So trying to generalize all the atheists into one conglomerate is kind of a waste of your time.

Pleasy has been here wasting our time for almost a year now. He has consistently offered no compelling argument in all of his time here. Thanks for putting it so simply, a lot of us here are still trying to argue with his inanity.

Welcome to the forum Pen! Hope your stay is more productive than PJ's!

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13-11-2013, 02:25 AM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 02:41 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(12-11-2013 09:42 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  A story on The Blaze about the downfall of faith in America.

It is interesting, because on the way into work today I was listening to The Atheist Experience podcast where they debated two callers about morality. I really do not see how Christians equate non-belief with lack of morality.

And I find it ironic that many fundamentalist Christians are anti big government because they don't want authority in their lives, but willingly embrace a system of morality based solely on authoritarianism.

Benign authoritarianism. A dictator who is just, kind and etc., and dispenses kindness and justice on the basis of omniscience regarding every person's actions, intentions, and motives, is okay by me. The issue is atheists want freedom from all authority in general. Yes? No?

"The issue is atheists want freedom from all authority in general. Yes? No?"

Huh?
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13-11-2013, 08:41 AM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 02:41 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Benign authoritarianism. A dictator who is just, kind and etc., and dispenses kindness and justice on the basis of omniscience regarding every person's actions, intentions, and motives, is okay by me. The issue is atheists want freedom from all authority in general. Yes? No?

See? Always black and white with PJ.

I don't want freedom from all authority, I do however want a means of recourse to challenge any power that might have authority over me. Power needs checks and balances to keep things in line. What do you do when an authoritarian regime stops being benign, and starts to actively oppress or subjugate you? What do you do when the power that be turn on you and you find the (thought) police knocking on your door? By then it's too late.

Even in a perfectly benign monarchy, I'd still push for accountability and checks on authority and power; anything less would speak of a supreme level of naivety. The world is shades of gray PJ, always shades of gray.

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