Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
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13-11-2013, 09:14 AM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
The typical Athiest (like me, for instance), isn't some kind of revolutionary who wants to bring communism to the US, or some crap like that. We're just people who dare to question the majority, and don't need ancient mistranslated fairy tales to be happy with life. I'm happy to see Christianity dying.Evil_monster
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13-11-2013, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2013 10:09 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(12-11-2013 02:41 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(12-11-2013 09:42 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  A story on The Blaze about the downfall of faith in America.

It is interesting, because on the way into work today I was listening to The Atheist Experience podcast where they debated two callers about morality. I really do not see how Christians equate non-belief with lack of morality.

And I find it ironic that many fundamentalist Christians are anti big government because they don't want authority in their lives, but willingly embrace a system of morality based solely on authoritarianism.

Benign authoritarianism. A dictator who is just, kind and etc., and dispenses kindness and justice on the basis of omniscience regarding every person's actions, intentions, and motives, is okay by me. The issue is atheists want freedom from all authority in general. Yes? No?

No. Well, yes in some cases (see the more libertarian atheists) but that's more about the individual than about atheism at large, just like the way some Christians are gun nuts doesn't make all Christians gun nuts.

Your scenario of the benevolent dictator is flawed in two respects. First, there exists a serious doubt that it is really benevolent. This isn't just in atheists, by the way; entire denominations reject the doctrine of omnibenevolence. (Unless they're not real Christians? Geez, it's so hard to keep track of who's a real Christian. If I listen to everyone who says that such-and-such group aren't real Christians, then it turns out that no one is!) I'm sure we can argue that topic for weeks, but since we have already, let's move on to problem 2.

In this dictatorship of yours the benevolent dictator isn't providing much in the way of leadership. Direct instruction from the dictator is either non-existent, or difficult to comprehend, or not clearly authenticated to others. This is easily demonstrable by the vast array of people who disagree, on fundamental levels, about what God has commanded, and the fact that these disputes have persisted without clarification despite thousands of people on both sides praying for guidance. One side cannot simply present the written, signed, and sealed mandate of God on such-and-such point to the other, and have it recognized, to have the dispute ended. There is no such clear mandate. Nor is the dictator loudly decreeing in a manner that all can hear and agree on what they've heard. Nor is there a clear bureaucracy serving as intermediaries. There are several purported bureaucracies, all in competition with each other, and yet it is clear that all but one of these (and possibly all of these) must be illegitimate. Furthermore, however benevolent the dictator might or might not be, the bureaus purportedly passing on his instructions and mandated to administer on his behalf are, in most cases, clearly not benevolent.

In other words, this model of God's authority as a benevolent dictatorship with a kindly hand at the helm, looks an awful lot like an anarchy with NO hand at the helm. Those who reject authority in all forms would be well-advised to EMBRACE Christianity, at least overtly, because it represents the ultimate cop-out of "I don't have to recognize your rule over me, Mister Government, because God says I don't have to." And argue whether it actually says that as we will, we can see that many people have done exactly that.
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13-11-2013, 10:10 AM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
It's one of the reasons I really like Seth. He sticks to issues of faith and all that. Listening to Atheist Experience and Dogma Debate I think does more harm than good, especially if we want to make more inroads into areas that are conservative and religious.


(12-11-2013 10:43 PM)Penumbrae Wrote:  I may be new, but I've read the forums for awhile and the one thing I have found that sticks out the most is how many different opinions each person has on here. The only solid connection is the unbelief in a god/gods. Of course this isn't applicable to the few theists here.
So trying to generalize all the atheists into one conglomerate is kind of a waste of your time.
Smile
Also, I happen to think some government is necessary, so no, I personally don't want freedom from all authority in general.

Why are you still reading this line when it is obviously my signature line?
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13-11-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: Mark Driscoll and the state of faith in America
(13-11-2013 10:10 AM)FaceOfBoe Wrote:  It's one of the reasons I really like Seth. He sticks to issues of faith and all that. Listening to Atheist Experience and Dogma Debate I think does more harm than good, especially if we want to make more inroads into areas that are conservative and religious.

Yeah, I tried to listen to the Dogma Debate after Seth had him on one of his podcasts and I have yet to listen to the Atheist Experience, but I really enjoy TTA. Seth comes off as a really rational, open-minded individual. Frankly, I was surprised he was from Oklahoma, since most of the people I talk to here are so painfully close-minded.

/tangent
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