Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
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23-11-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(20-11-2015 05:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 03:34 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What arguments? Paul not being a charlatan involves Paul being sincere, humble, ministering, religious, kind--no matter what arguments I use atheists insist Paul and even the Lord Jesus Christ were none of these things. What facts would you like me to present?

Was Paul humble?

NO! He was a narcissist!

“Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, the gospel that you received and in which you are firmly established; because the gospel will save you only if you keep believing exactly what I preached to you - believing anything else will not lead to anything” (1 Cor. 15:1–3, NJB.)

“Take me for your model, as I take Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1, NJB.)

Paul thought he was the next best thing to God; that he was the personal deputy of his deity.

A few years later Paul wrote,

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Gal. 2:20, KJV.)

By then God’s right hand man had himself become God.

“Similarly, I direct that women are to wear suitable clothes and to be dressed quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold and jewelry or expensive clothes; their adornment is to do the sort of good works that are proper for women who profess to be religious. During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I am not giving permission for a woman to teach or to tell a man what to do. A woman ought not to speak, because Adam was formed first and Eve afterwards, and it was not Adam who was led astray but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin. Nevertheless, she will be saved by childbearing, provided she lives a modest life and is constant in faith and love and holiness” (1 Tim. 2:9–15, NJB.)

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:34-5, KJV.)

He ordered women around.

A man who could write this stuff is not humble.

And this is why we can't find any common ground to agree upon as well as REAL issues worth debating over. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13: the most famous writing in human history on love, humility and self-sacrifice, and you are calling him a narcissist, hypocrite, bitter... what is your refutation of this:

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-11-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 10:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 04:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Q, you wrote

"Not a Roman conspiracy dating to AFTER the Romans had subjugated Israel!"

When do you think Paul wrote his epistles?

Um, you have talked of TWO conspiracies. Paul's writings as a charlatan and then pseudo-Paul Roman work. You also have affirmed that you believe in a dozen different conspiracies authoring the NT! Drinking Beverage

I'll try again. When do you think Paul wrote his epistles?
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23-11-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 10:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 04:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Are you really unaware of the prevailing scholarly opinion that held sway for millennia that Mark was written before any NT epistle?"

Well this is interesting. You will find, if you use google, that most commentators place Paul's genuine epistles before the first gospels. I am rather amazed that you do the opposite. Please provide me with a link or two to anyone who backs you up on this.

http://jesuschristians.com/new-articles/...-or-gospel
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...-not-much/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcus-bor...=Australia
http://jerichobrisance.com/2013/10/13/in...ent-books/

Don't most of you atheists believe that Matthew and Luke wrote from Markan prior writings?

Atheists only have one belief in common...gods don't exist.
Yes, I and perhaps 99% of biblical scholars, believe that Matthew and Luke plagiarized from Mark. Your point is what, exactly?

"Are you that ignorant of NT scholarship? Why am I debating someone who doesn't know what I learned in my first week of college?"

If you use google or read some books on the authorship of the New Testament you will very quickly realise that you are the ignorant party. If you wish to present a case that Mark was written before the Pauline epistles, as per a small minority of scholars...please...do. It would be nice to hear something concrete from you.

It matters not, because EVERY time I quote Paul to refute you, you claim that those are of later authorship/redacted in. Each of these beliefs of yours are also conjectural, as you mentioned!

I'll try again. If you wish to present a case that Mark was written before the Pauline epistles, as per a small minority of scholars...please...do. It would be nice to hear something concrete from you.
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23-11-2015, 03:29 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 11:01 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 10:59 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 05:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "You can't possibly be this dense regarding Christian doctrine 101. Jesus is the Word of God -- He inspired/wrote the entire Bible, both testaments."

If I told you that Mickey Mouse wrote "Macbeth," "The Merchant of Venice," "Wuthering Heights," "Lord of the Rings " and "Harry Potter" you would quite rightly think I had lost my marbles. If I told you that you were "dense" because the Mickey Mouse fan club believes this to be true, you would be, shall we say, rather bemused.

A cartoon character, such as Jeebus, can't go back in time, and can't write.

Your short term memory is lacking. Instead of goal post shifting with yet another anti-divine bias, recall that I said Jesus wrote and you said Jesus didn't write and I said you clearly don't know Thing 1 about evangelical beliefs!

Did an angel recite the book of Mormon to Joseph Smith? Did Mohammed fly on a horse to Jerusalem? Is Jesus now living on a farm in Queensland? Please be careful not to show any "anti-divine bias" when you answer.Big Grin
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23-11-2015, 03:34 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 02:13 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 11:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-11-2015 12:36 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Is this the language you would use in the formal debate in person I'd suggested?"


So not only your ideas, but your language seems to be rooted in the 1950's ! Cool

My language in a debate in an academic setting would not include belittling my opponent and cursing him. I guess that's why you hadn't followed up on my request to debate in person--because your manners date to the 1550's. Drinking Beverage

"My language in a debate in an academic setting would not include belittling my opponent..."

Ah ha. Who then, wrote the following?

"Wow, you are slower on the uptake then I thought."
"You can't possibly be this dense..."
"Are you that ignorant of NT scholarship? Why am I debating someone who doesn't know what I learned in my first week of college?"


Maybe your cat walked across your keyboard?Big Grin
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23-11-2015, 11:22 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 01:25 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 11:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 05:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Was Paul humble?

NO! He was a narcissist!

“Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, the gospel that you received and in which you are firmly established; because the gospel will save you only if you keep believing exactly what I preached to you - believing anything else will not lead to anything” (1 Cor. 15:1–3, NJB.)

“Take me for your model, as I take Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1, NJB.)

Paul thought he was the next best thing to God; that he was the personal deputy of his deity.

A few years later Paul wrote,

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Gal. 2:20, KJV.)

By then God’s right hand man had himself become God.

“Similarly, I direct that women are to wear suitable clothes and to be dressed quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold and jewelry or expensive clothes; their adornment is to do the sort of good works that are proper for women who profess to be religious. During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I am not giving permission for a woman to teach or to tell a man what to do. A woman ought not to speak, because Adam was formed first and Eve afterwards, and it was not Adam who was led astray but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin. Nevertheless, she will be saved by childbearing, provided she lives a modest life and is constant in faith and love and holiness” (1 Tim. 2:9–15, NJB.)

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:34-5, KJV.)

He ordered women around.

A man who could write this stuff is not humble.

And this is why we can't find any common ground to agree upon as well as REAL issues worth debating over. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13: the most famous writing in human history on love, humility and self-sacrifice, and you are calling him a narcissist, hypocrite, bitter... what is your refutation of this:

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

A few nice phrases from Paul can't make up for his nastiness, narcissism and the fact he needed to control everyone. You need to read more of him.

PS well done bringing up a point that actually has something to do with Paul and whatever we were talking about. If you could do this more often we may be able to have a real discussion.
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23-11-2015, 11:33 PM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 11:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-11-2015 12:36 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Is this the language you would use in the formal debate in person I'd suggested?"


So not only your ideas, but your language seems to be rooted in the 1950's ! Cool

My language in a debate in an academic setting would not include belittling my opponent and cursing him. I guess that's why you hadn't followed up on my request to debate in person--because your manners date to the 1550's. Drinking Beverage

"I guess that's why you hadn't followed up on my request to debate in person--because your manners date to the 1550's."

We could debate on skype, record it, and post it on the forum. How do you feel about that?
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24-11-2015, 01:29 AM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 01:37 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 10:59 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 05:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "You can't possibly be this dense regarding Christian doctrine 101. Jesus is the Word of God -- He inspired/wrote the entire Bible, both testaments."

If I told you that Mickey Mouse wrote "Macbeth," "The Merchant of Venice," "Wuthering Heights," "Lord of the Rings " and "Harry Potter" you would quite rightly think I had lost my marbles. If I told you that you were "dense" because the Mickey Mouse fan club believes this to be true, you would be, shall we say, rather bemused.

A cartoon character, such as Jeebus, can't go back in time, and can't write.

Your short term memory is lacking. Instead of goal post shifting with yet another anti-divine bias, recall that I said Jesus wrote and you said Jesus didn't write and I said you clearly don't know Thing 1 about evangelical beliefs!

There's nothing wrong with my memory. I understand your evangelical beliefs, and I refute them as nonsense. You seem to think that that just by stating them you make them true. Sorry, but in the real world that doesn't happen.
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24-11-2015, 01:39 AM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 11:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 05:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Was Paul humble?

NO! He was a narcissist!

“Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, the gospel that you received and in which you are firmly established; because the gospel will save you only if you keep believing exactly what I preached to you - believing anything else will not lead to anything” (1 Cor. 15:1–3, NJB.)

“Take me for your model, as I take Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1, NJB.)

Paul thought he was the next best thing to God; that he was the personal deputy of his deity.

A few years later Paul wrote,

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Gal. 2:20, KJV.)

By then God’s right hand man had himself become God.

“Similarly, I direct that women are to wear suitable clothes and to be dressed quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold and jewelry or expensive clothes; their adornment is to do the sort of good works that are proper for women who profess to be religious. During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I am not giving permission for a woman to teach or to tell a man what to do. A woman ought not to speak, because Adam was formed first and Eve afterwards, and it was not Adam who was led astray but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin. Nevertheless, she will be saved by childbearing, provided she lives a modest life and is constant in faith and love and holiness” (1 Tim. 2:9–15, NJB.)

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:34-5, KJV.)

He ordered women around.

A man who could write this stuff is not humble.

And this is why we can't find any common ground to agree upon as well as REAL issues worth debating over. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13: the most famous writing in human history on love, humility and self-sacrifice, and you are calling him a narcissist, hypocrite, bitter... what is your refutation of this:

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

For a good in depth assessment of Paul's character, read this...
http://false-apostle-paul-archive.blogsp..._2492.html

The author and I have come to many of the same conclusions.
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24-11-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(23-11-2015 03:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 11:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  My language in a debate in an academic setting would not include belittling my opponent and cursing him. I guess that's why you hadn't followed up on my request to debate in person--because your manners date to the 1550's. Drinking Beverage

"My language in a debate in an academic setting would not include belittling my opponent..."

Ah ha. Who then, wrote the following?

"Wow, you are slower on the uptake then I thought."
"You can't possibly be this dense..."
"Are you that ignorant of NT scholarship? Why am I debating someone who doesn't know what I learned in my first week of college?"

Maybe your cat walked across your keyboard?Big Grin

I guess the difference between us is when I call you stupid I usually do so in a classy, debate-like way.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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