Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
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25-01-2016, 03:11 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2016 03:23 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(25-01-2016 02:12 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 03:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Q, I have asked you repeatedly (posts 235,243,255) to provide evidence for your claim that Paul was beaten many times by Romans. I have been waiting since the 5th Dec 2015 for an answer. That's 46 days. You are a self proclaimed expert on Paul. Yet you can't back up your own assumptions. There is no evidence Paul was beaten by Romans.

So what?

Firstly... it aptly demonstrates more evidence that Paul was not working against the Roman government but that Paul and them were both on the same side i.e. they were trying to prevent discord with Jews.

Secondly... you are a typical example of how obstinate some Christians are. You don't understand the real history, and you are totally unwilling to even slightly question your own beliefs. Your dishonesty (for example changing "Paul was beaten by Romans" to "Paul claims to have been beaten many times" ) is very disconcerting, and doesn't go unnoticed. We both know Paul, or someone writing in his name, claimed he was beaten...but not by Romans. You would be a lot more popular and have much more credibility if you simply admitted some of your assumptions about Paul were incorrect.

Ultimately this forum is not here to make any individual look good or put down anyone... it is here so all of us can learn from each other. You seem totally incapable of learning. You demonstrate no evidence that you've read the passages I've quoted or looked at any of my links. Instead of helping our readers you are just holding back the discussion for those of us who are interested in learning about Paul... and the origins of Christianity.

I beg your pardon. I've offered Bible references that Paul was beaten and rather than offering any contemporary documentary or other evidence refuting the facts, you've merely stated, "Those verses are falsified" and when challenged, remained silent as to how it is that you "know" which verses were redacted, later insertions, pseudo-Paul, etc.

If, however, you insist that we need extra-biblical sources to confirm Bible statements of fact, not spirituality or miracles, such as "Paul was beaten", then kindly provide your CONTEMPORARY, extra-biblical sources PROVING:

*Paul was a Roman conspirator
*Paul was a charlatan

Or else leave the ring.

Thanks.

Q, you either have Altzheimers or you are a liar.

I wrote

"We both know Paul, or someone writing in his name, claimed he was beaten..."

You then, seemingly deliberately, misrepresent me by claiming I stated "those verses were falsified."

I pointed out that

"You were dishonest (for example changing "Paul was beaten by Romans" to "Paul claims to have been beaten many times" )"

And you have the gall, once again, to change your argument to

"I've offered Bible references that Paul was beaten"... thereby leaving out the "by Romans" bit. This is after it was explained to you that Paul was beaten by Jews, not Romans, a point that is at the very crux of the discussion.

You then write

"then kindly provide your CONTEMPORARY, extra-biblical sources PROVING:
*Paul was a Roman conspirator
*Paul was a charlatan"

This is roughly the twentieth time you have asked these same questions, and you are sounding like a worn out old record. Yet you haven't read any of the evidence I've presented so far, as you haven't refuted it or discussed it. Go back and reread this debate. The evidence will jump out at you from every page. It comes from the writings of Paul himself, the book of Acts, James, the other books of the NT, and from a nuanced understanding of the cultural, social and political atmosphere of the times, and from the other writers I've quoted. It's all there...I've done a lot of the work for you...my free gift to you...the story of how Christian theology was invented.
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26-01-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
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26-01-2016, 01:26 AM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
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26-01-2016, 01:27 AM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2016 03:30 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
Ah...what the hell, it's a public holiday (Australia day) here...I have some spare time...let's consider what Paul says about him getting pushed around...

2 Corinthians 11, King James Version (KJV)

1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
(note how Paul equates God's emotions with his own) for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Paul, the asshole, has the gall to tell the Corinthians he has prepared them (ie lectured them) as virgins for the husband of his choosing (his Christ.) There's something quite sickening about that attitude.

Actually, he was preparing the Corinthians to be fucked up by Christ.Tongue

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.


The Nazarenes (ie the real followers of Jesus, the "very chiefest" apostles) are preaching "another gospel" ie not "his" (Paul's). Paul is put out by this...because his authority has been questioned.

6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.

7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?

8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.

10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.


"I'm full of my own shit, and noone is going to stop me sprouting it"

Paul also admits robbing money from churches elsewhere and using it to benefit the Corinthians (and buy himself their favour.)

11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.

12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


So anyone who disagrees with Paul's shit is "false" and "deceitful"...even if they happen to be the original family and followers of Jesus.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Note the Jews believed in the value of "works"...Paul preached against that by saying all you needed was faith.

16 I say again, let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.

17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.

19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.


Paul is comparing himself to the true apostles of Jesus.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

Here he claims he is a better "minister of Christ" than the Nazarenes.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

Note, Q, it is the Jews who whip him.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

Note, Q, that Jews (not Romans) stone people. You have watched "Life of Brian", haven't you?

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.


One little problem with all this...Paul was lying through his teeth.Big Grin His Christ was nothing more than a figment of his imagination.

This is a typical example of Paul's ramblings...full of exaggerations, false modesty, lies, talking himself up, and denigrating others. It's nauseating. And it's from the pen of the creator of Christian theology.
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27-01-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
This is clearly my fault for not communicating well, for which I apologize.

You have asked for proof/evidence. Here is some:

Paul’s sufferings/persecutions endured:

2 Corinthians 4:8-12 – “ . . . We are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed -- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you.”

Galatians 5:11 – “And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.”

2 Timothy 3:10-11 – “But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra -- what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

1 Corinthians 15:30-32 – “And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"

2 Corinthians 4:7-18 – “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed -- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you. 13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, ‘I believed and therefore I spoke,’ we also believe and therefore speak, 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God. 16 Seeing the Invisible Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Corinthians 6:3-10 – “We give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed. 4 But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, 5 in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; 6 by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, 7 by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; 9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold we live; as chastened, and yet not killed; 10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.”

2 Corinthians 12:5-10 – “Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 11 Signs of an Apostle I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”

Galatians 4:13, 15 – “You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.” 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.”

Galatians 5:1 – “Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”

Galatians 6:7 – “From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.”

Romans 9:1-2 – “I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 – “. . . in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.”

Perhaps we have come to believe that this is a list of ALL the sufferings Paul endured in his ministry. Not so! Consider the following:

*2 Corinthians is the fourth book Paul wrote. It was written from Macedonia in the autumn of 57 A.D. during his third missionary journey. It is believed that Paul’s conversion occurred in 36 A.D. and his death in Rome in 68 A.D. That would indicate a ministry of some 32 years. Since 2 Corinthians was written in 57 A.D. and recorded sufferings Paul had endured up to the time of the writing, the list would encompass the first 21 years of Paul’s 32-year ministry, but would not include the last 11 years of his life and work. Thus, the list would not include:

*The 4th and final year of the 3rd missionary journey.

*Paul’s arrest and treatment in Jerusalem.

*Paul’s two-year imprisonment in Jerusalem.

*Paul’s perilous journey from Caesarea to Rome that included: a. Another shipwreck b. A snakebite 5. Paul’s first Roman imprisonment in Caesarea.

*Paul’s “house arrest” imprisonment in Rome.

*The three-to-four year period between the first and second Roman imprisonment.

*Paul’s second Roman imprisonment which resulted in his execution. c. Therefore, the list of sufferings in 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 would include Paul’s sufferings during the first two-thirds of his 32-year ministry, but not include the final one-third.

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28-01-2016, 03:03 AM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(27-01-2016 09:40 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  This is clearly my fault for not communicating well, for which I apologize.

You have asked for proof/evidence. Here is some:

Paul’s sufferings/persecutions endured:

2 Corinthians 4:8-12 – “ . . . We are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed -- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you.”

Galatians 5:11 – “And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.”

2 Timothy 3:10-11 – “But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra -- what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

1 Corinthians 15:30-32 – “And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"

2 Corinthians 4:7-18 – “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed -- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you. 13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, ‘I believed and therefore I spoke,’ we also believe and therefore speak, 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God. 16 Seeing the Invisible Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Corinthians 6:3-10 – “We give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed. 4 But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, 5 in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; 6 by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, 7 by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; 9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold we live; as chastened, and yet not killed; 10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.”

2 Corinthians 12:5-10 – “Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 11 Signs of an Apostle I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”

Galatians 4:13, 15 – “You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.” 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.”

Galatians 5:1 – “Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”

Galatians 6:7 – “From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.”

Romans 9:1-2 – “I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 – “. . . in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.”

Perhaps we have come to believe that this is a list of ALL the sufferings Paul endured in his ministry. Not so! Consider the following:

*2 Corinthians is the fourth book Paul wrote. It was written from Macedonia in the autumn of 57 A.D. during his third missionary journey. It is believed that Paul’s conversion occurred in 36 A.D. and his death in Rome in 68 A.D. That would indicate a ministry of some 32 years. Since 2 Corinthians was written in 57 A.D. and recorded sufferings Paul had endured up to the time of the writing, the list would encompass the first 21 years of Paul’s 32-year ministry, but would not include the last 11 years of his life and work. Thus, the list would not include:

*The 4th and final year of the 3rd missionary journey.

*Paul’s arrest and treatment in Jerusalem.

*Paul’s two-year imprisonment in Jerusalem.

*Paul’s perilous journey from Caesarea to Rome that included: a. Another shipwreck b. A snakebite 5. Paul’s first Roman imprisonment in Caesarea.

*Paul’s “house arrest” imprisonment in Rome.

*The three-to-four year period between the first and second Roman imprisonment.

*Paul’s second Roman imprisonment which resulted in his execution. c. Therefore, the list of sufferings in 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 would include Paul’s sufferings during the first two-thirds of his 32-year ministry, but not include the final one-third.

Gosh...I must admit, Q, I'm pleasantly surprised that you are actually contributing to the discussion by posting some of Paul's writings. I'm well aware that that takes more effort than just repeating yourself...so I applaud you for at least trying to make a point, and thereby raising the level of this discussion. Could it be you are actually addressing some of my criticisms about Paul? I hope so.

But...um...what's your point? You seem to be saying that Paul claimed he suffered for his beliefs. I can't argue with that. Please fill me (and I assume everyone else) in as to why you posted so many quotes from Paul.
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28-01-2016, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2016 03:39 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(27-01-2016 09:40 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  This is clearly my fault for not communicating well, for which I apologize.

You have asked for proof/evidence. Here is some:

Paul’s sufferings/persecutions endured:

2 Corinthians 4:8-12 – “ . . . We are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed -- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you.”

Galatians 5:11 – “And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.”

2 Timothy 3:10-11 – “But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra -- what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

1 Corinthians 15:30-32 – “And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"

2 Corinthians 4:7-18 – “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed -- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you. 13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, ‘I believed and therefore I spoke,’ we also believe and therefore speak, 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God. 16 Seeing the Invisible Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Corinthians 6:3-10 – “We give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed. 4 But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, 5 in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; 6 by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, 7 by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; 9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold we live; as chastened, and yet not killed; 10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.”

2 Corinthians 12:5-10 – “Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 11 Signs of an Apostle I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”

Galatians 4:13, 15 – “You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.” 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.”

Galatians 5:1 – “Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”

Galatians 6:7 – “From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.”

Romans 9:1-2 – “I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 – “. . . in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.”

Perhaps we have come to believe that this is a list of ALL the sufferings Paul endured in his ministry. Not so! Consider the following:

*2 Corinthians is the fourth book Paul wrote. It was written from Macedonia in the autumn of 57 A.D. during his third missionary journey. It is believed that Paul’s conversion occurred in 36 A.D. and his death in Rome in 68 A.D. That would indicate a ministry of some 32 years. Since 2 Corinthians was written in 57 A.D. and recorded sufferings Paul had endured up to the time of the writing, the list would encompass the first 21 years of Paul’s 32-year ministry, but would not include the last 11 years of his life and work. Thus, the list would not include:

*The 4th and final year of the 3rd missionary journey.

*Paul’s arrest and treatment in Jerusalem.

*Paul’s two-year imprisonment in Jerusalem.

*Paul’s perilous journey from Caesarea to Rome that included: a. Another shipwreck b. A snakebite 5. Paul’s first Roman imprisonment in Caesarea.

*Paul’s “house arrest” imprisonment in Rome.

*The three-to-four year period between the first and second Roman imprisonment.

*Paul’s second Roman imprisonment which resulted in his execution. c. Therefore, the list of sufferings in 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 would include Paul’s sufferings during the first two-thirds of his 32-year ministry, but not include the final one-third.

When we read enough of Paul we get real insight into his character. He was most definitely histrionic; excessively dramatic in style. He exaggerated much of what he said. He had to, because he was peddling nonsense, a fact that must've been very obvious to most who met him, despite their naivety. All he had to back up his theological claims about his Christ and God was the story of his own delusions and hallucinations... that was just as weak 2000 years ago as it is today, so he had to exaggerate the ardour of his own convictions.

I'm not saying that he didn't get knocked around a bit sometimes or that he didn't get cold and hungry at times, but we can take everything he writes with a grain of salt. In an age where there were hardly any channels of mass communication he could make up stories about his own travails and easily get away with it. We know he had no hesitation lying so as to sell a story.

What is more, the fact he suffered for his beliefs does not make them any more true. All it means is that he was obsessively attached to them despite the fact they made him unpopular.

Q, you have claimed that Paul was beheaded in Rome in 68 CE. There is no good evidence for this. It is one of those church traditions invented by the church fathers. Think about it. The Roman government didn't behead people for no reason, and they had no reason to kill Paul. He was one of their own.
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30-01-2016, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2016 04:46 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(27-01-2016 09:40 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  This is clearly my fault for not communicating well, for which I apologize.

You have asked for proof/evidence. Here is some:

Paul’s sufferings/persecutions endured:

2 Corinthians 4:8-12 – “ . . . We are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed -- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you.”

Galatians 5:11 – “And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.”

2 Timothy 3:10-11 – “But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra -- what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

1 Corinthians 15:30-32 – “And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"

2 Corinthians 4:7-18 – “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed -- 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you. 13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, ‘I believed and therefore I spoke,’ we also believe and therefore speak, 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God. 16 Seeing the Invisible Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Corinthians 6:3-10 – “We give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed. 4 But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, 5 in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; 6 by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, 7 by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; 9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold we live; as chastened, and yet not killed; 10 as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.”

2 Corinthians 12:5-10 – “Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 11 Signs of an Apostle I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”

Galatians 4:13, 15 – “You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.” 15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.”

Galatians 5:1 – “Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”

Galatians 6:7 – “From now on let no one trouble me, for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.”

Romans 9:1-2 – “I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 – “. . . in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.”

Perhaps we have come to believe that this is a list of ALL the sufferings Paul endured in his ministry. Not so! Consider the following:

*2 Corinthians is the fourth book Paul wrote. It was written from Macedonia in the autumn of 57 A.D. during his third missionary journey. It is believed that Paul’s conversion occurred in 36 A.D. and his death in Rome in 68 A.D. That would indicate a ministry of some 32 years. Since 2 Corinthians was written in 57 A.D. and recorded sufferings Paul had endured up to the time of the writing, the list would encompass the first 21 years of Paul’s 32-year ministry, but would not include the last 11 years of his life and work. Thus, the list would not include:

*The 4th and final year of the 3rd missionary journey.

*Paul’s arrest and treatment in Jerusalem.

*Paul’s two-year imprisonment in Jerusalem.

*Paul’s perilous journey from Caesarea to Rome that included: a. Another shipwreck b. A snakebite 5. Paul’s first Roman imprisonment in Caesarea.

*Paul’s “house arrest” imprisonment in Rome.

*The three-to-four year period between the first and second Roman imprisonment.

*Paul’s second Roman imprisonment which resulted in his execution. c. Therefore, the list of sufferings in 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 would include Paul’s sufferings during the first two-thirds of his 32-year ministry, but not include the final one-third.

It seems that you think the readers here should be impressed by Paul's whining. You say you have read all of Paul 30 times. How could you do that, yet not have had a "light bulb" moment? By which I mean, how could you not be aware of, and appalled by, Paul's obvious insecurities, delusions of grandeur and pathetic pleadings? Has it not occurred to you that Paul was mentally unstable, a loose cannon, a maverick, and a self-obsessed, insecure person? That he had a secondary agenda he was not honest enough to admit in any of his writings?

What is more, why is it not obvious to you that there was almost nothing real or true or useful in any of Paul's ramblings?

I say Paul must have badgered people to the point of severe irritation. He was worse than today's most indoctrinated JW's. He must have been on a good salary, or else he would have disappeared up his own asshole and given up sometime earlier in his career.

What a shame that the writings of this nasty, pathetic little man continue to poison modern man's ethics.
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02-02-2016, 11:17 AM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
Quote:Gosh...I must admit, Q, I'm pleasantly surprised that you are actually contributing to the discussion by posting some of Paul's writings. I'm well aware that that takes more effort than just repeating yourself...so I applaud you for at least trying to make a point, and thereby raising the level of this discussion. Could it be you are actually addressing some of my criticisms about Paul? I hope so.

But...um...what's your point? You seem to be saying that Paul claimed he suffered for his beliefs. I can't argue with that. Please fill me (and I assume everyone else) in as to why you posted so many quotes from Paul.

Hi Mark,

I posted details on Paul's sufferings because you claimed they were alleged when I wrote--paraphrasing--"Why would Paul be a charlatan/Roman conspirator and then be beaten and suffer so much at the hands of the Romans?"

That is, I'm attacking your central thesis.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-02-2016, 02:58 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2016 03:19 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(02-02-2016 11:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:Gosh...I must admit, Q, I'm pleasantly surprised that you are actually contributing to the discussion by posting some of Paul's writings. I'm well aware that that takes more effort than just repeating yourself...so I applaud you for at least trying to make a point, and thereby raising the level of this discussion. Could it be you are actually addressing some of my criticisms about Paul? I hope so.

But...um...what's your point? You seem to be saying that Paul claimed he suffered for his beliefs. I can't argue with that. Please fill me (and I assume everyone else) in as to why you posted so many quotes from Paul.

Hi Mark,

I posted details on Paul's sufferings because you claimed they were alleged when I wrote--paraphrasing--"Why would Paul be a charlatan/Roman conspirator and then be beaten and suffer so much at the hands of the Romans?"

That is, I'm attacking your central thesis.

Q, please go back and read posts 261, 251, 235 and 243. (They are the numbers at the top right hand corner of each post.)

I suspect you may be severely embarrassed about what you just wrote, because, once again, for the umpteenth time in this "debate," you have failed to follow the trail of the conversation and just repeated yourself.

We all know Paul claimed he was beaten...but not by Romans. I have asked you multiple times to back up your claim Paul was beaten by Romans and you can't, because you haven't. Hence my "central thesis" has not been "attacked," but has, in fact, been made more plausible.

If you do have a genuine problem with your memory, you should be getting someone to help you before you post.
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