Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
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05-02-2016, 05:58 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2016 06:31 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What, then, is this, which I wrote in post 123...

"The whole prison thing has been exaggerated. He had pen and paper wherever he was. He was a Roman citizen. He did nothing that the Roman government could have considered unlawful, other than disturbing the peace. They kept him for two years in a palace at Caesaria... not a prison... for his own protection. He wrote letters from Rome sending greetings from the Imperial Palace... you don't do that if you're a prisoner."

Since then you have asked the same question about 6 times, despite me telling you I had already replied.

About now you will be pondering over your next master stroke...probably hitting me with a question why Paul was repeatedly beaten by Romans.

I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?

But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad," and "Paul wasn't really in prison often," after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right? And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel? Or just that magical atheist power of make believe?

By the way, since you are a materialist who believes only what he can sense, how can you comment with such perspicuity and insight as to how and where Paul was imprisoned two millennia ago?

Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians as to the length of Paul's imprisonments (and can read Paul's mind to tell us exactly where he writes truth and where he writes lies) what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?

"I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?"

Who physically put pen on paper is a non issue. The letters were (allegedly) either written by Paul or dictated by Paul. Either way they contained Paul's musings. Please explain why you think who physically wrote them is so important.

The very fact Paul was allowed to write multiple long and detailed letters undermines your assertion that he was chained up and sitting in his own shit. It also strongly implies that the government had no real issue with the theological nonsense Paul was peddling.

Also...I would like to know why you think Paul was imprisoned. I've given you my opinion...let's hear yours.
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05-02-2016, 06:09 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 03:44 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What, then, is this, which I wrote in post 123...

"The whole prison thing has been exaggerated. He had pen and paper wherever he was. He was a Roman citizen. He did nothing that the Roman government could have considered unlawful, other than disturbing the peace. They kept him for two years in a palace at Caesaria... not a prison... for his own protection. He wrote letters from Rome sending greetings from the Imperial Palace... you don't do that if you're a prisoner."

Since then you have asked the same question about 6 times, despite me telling you I had already replied.

About now you will be pondering over your next master stroke...probably hitting me with a question why Paul was repeatedly beaten by Romans.

I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?

But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad," and "Paul wasn't really in prison often," after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right? And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel? Or just that magical atheist power of make believe?

By the way, since you are a materialist who believes only what he can sense, how can you comment with such perspicuity and insight as to how and where Paul was imprisoned two millennia ago?

Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians as to the length of Paul's imprisonments (and can read Paul's mind to tell us exactly where he writes truth and where he writes lies) what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?

"And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel?"

You are making out that "secular historians" agree with you, yet you haven't said about what, or who these historians are, and you haven't made a case for "these matters" ( presumably Paul's imprisonments). Please explain yourself, and tell us why you think he was imprisoned, and make a case presenting your evidence that he was kept in terrible conditions.

Please go on to explain why, if he was imprisoned in terrible conditions, that adds anything to the veracity of his letters.
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05-02-2016, 06:17 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2016 06:26 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What, then, is this, which I wrote in post 123...

"The whole prison thing has been exaggerated. He had pen and paper wherever he was. He was a Roman citizen. He did nothing that the Roman government could have considered unlawful, other than disturbing the peace. They kept him for two years in a palace at Caesaria... not a prison... for his own protection. He wrote letters from Rome sending greetings from the Imperial Palace... you don't do that if you're a prisoner."

Since then you have asked the same question about 6 times, despite me telling you I had already replied.

About now you will be pondering over your next master stroke...probably hitting me with a question why Paul was repeatedly beaten by Romans.

I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?

But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad," and "Paul wasn't really in prison often," after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right? And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel? Or just that magical atheist power of make believe?

By the way, since you are a materialist who believes only what he can sense, how can you comment with such perspicuity and insight as to how and where Paul was imprisoned two millennia ago?

Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians as to the length of Paul's imprisonments (and can read Paul's mind to tell us exactly where he writes truth and where he writes lies) what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?

"Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?"

You are a drama queen. I'm simply looking at the evidence...which are Paul's letters, and what we know of the socio - political circumstances of the era in which Paul lived. What I do not do is bow down to "traditional" ideas for which there is no evidence...such as that James and the other disciples were Christians, and that Paul was beheaded in Rome. If you would stick to discussing the evidence with me we could have a more meaningful debate...but I don't think you're up to it.
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05-02-2016, 06:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2016 06:35 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What, then, is this, which I wrote in post 123...

"The whole prison thing has been exaggerated. He had pen and paper wherever he was. He was a Roman citizen. He did nothing that the Roman government could have considered unlawful, other than disturbing the peace. They kept him for two years in a palace at Caesaria... not a prison... for his own protection. He wrote letters from Rome sending greetings from the Imperial Palace... you don't do that if you're a prisoner."

Since then you have asked the same question about 6 times, despite me telling you I had already replied.

About now you will be pondering over your next master stroke...probably hitting me with a question why Paul was repeatedly beaten by Romans.

I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?

But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad," and "Paul wasn't really in prison often," after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right? And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel? Or just that magical atheist power of make believe?

By the way, since you are a materialist who believes only what he can sense, how can you comment with such perspicuity and insight as to how and where Paul was imprisoned two millennia ago?

Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians as to the length of Paul's imprisonments (and can read Paul's mind to tell us exactly where he writes truth and where he writes lies) what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

"Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians...what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?


This is no fresh question. You've asked it multiple times before ( just like the "beaten by Romans", and "why the prison" questions,) and I have answered it many times. You do not read the answers, because you're not genuinely interested in the history...only in trying to make yourself sound good.
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05-02-2016, 07:05 PM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(04-02-2016 09:51 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Just in case there are any readers here questioning why Paul may have been kept for short periods of time imprisoned if he was, in fact, working for that Roman government, consider the following....

Paul regularly managed to disturb the peace wherever he went. It was the job of Roman officials and soldiers to keep peace. Paul needed protection from angry Jews. I think he was only one of many Government employees spreading propaganda. Obviously not every Roman official or soldier throughout the Empire would've known about Paul's role. The channels of communication in those days were not instantaneous. If you were in Jerusalem or Caesaria, for example, you couldn't just ring up Rome to find out about Paul's credentials. All they would've known was that this Paul character was disturbing the peace, and that he was a Roman citizen whose life was in danger. He may have been put in a prison... short term... while it was worked out who he was and what he was about.... and for his own protection.

Here endeth the lesson.

Wouldn't he have had a secret decoder scroll or something? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-02-2016, 10:53 PM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 07:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:51 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Just in case there are any readers here questioning why Paul may have been kept for short periods of time imprisoned if he was, in fact, working for that Roman government, consider the following....

Paul regularly managed to disturb the peace wherever he went. It was the job of Roman officials and soldiers to keep peace. Paul needed protection from angry Jews. I think he was only one of many Government employees spreading propaganda. Obviously not every Roman official or soldier throughout the Empire would've known about Paul's role. The channels of communication in those days were not instantaneous. If you were in Jerusalem or Caesaria, for example, you couldn't just ring up Rome to find out about Paul's credentials. All they would've known was that this Paul character was disturbing the peace, and that he was a Roman citizen whose life was in danger. He may have been put in a prison... short term... while it was worked out who he was and what he was about.... and for his own protection.

Here endeth the lesson.

Wouldn't he have had a secret decoder scroll or something? Consider

I don't know. Do you think the government would have bothered? Paul was no big fish in his own time.

I also think Paul was somewhat of a loose cannon. He created trouble for himself most places he went...but I don't think that was really part of his job. I suspect he was just given instructions to spread whatever nonsense he could think up that might break down the differences between Jews and Gentiles. I don't think starting riots and getting arrested was ever part of the game plan...it just turned out that way.
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05-02-2016, 11:05 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 03:47 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What, then, is this, which I wrote in post 123...

"The whole prison thing has been exaggerated. He had pen and paper wherever he was. He was a Roman citizen. He did nothing that the Roman government could have considered unlawful, other than disturbing the peace. They kept him for two years in a palace at Caesaria... not a prison... for his own protection. He wrote letters from Rome sending greetings from the Imperial Palace... you don't do that if you're a prisoner."

Since then you have asked the same question about 6 times, despite me telling you I had already replied.

About now you will be pondering over your next master stroke...probably hitting me with a question why Paul was repeatedly beaten by Romans.

I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?

But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad," and "Paul wasn't really in prison often," after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right? And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel? Or just that magical atheist power of make believe?

By the way, since you are a materialist who believes only what he can sense, how can you comment with such perspicuity and insight as to how and where Paul was imprisoned two millennia ago?

Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians as to the length of Paul's imprisonments (and can read Paul's mind to tell us exactly where he writes truth and where he writes lies) what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?

"after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right?"

Wrong.

It only means that four of the surviving epistles rightly or wrongly said to be genuinely Pauline may have been penned while he was in prison. It therefore says almost nothing about the actual length of time he may have spent in prison.Big Grin
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06-02-2016, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 06:52 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What, then, is this, which I wrote in post 123...

"The whole prison thing has been exaggerated. He had pen and paper wherever he was. He was a Roman citizen. He did nothing that the Roman government could have considered unlawful, other than disturbing the peace. They kept him for two years in a palace at Caesaria... not a prison... for his own protection. He wrote letters from Rome sending greetings from the Imperial Palace... you don't do that if you're a prisoner."

Since then you have asked the same question about 6 times, despite me telling you I had already replied.

About now you will be pondering over your next master stroke...probably hitting me with a question why Paul was repeatedly beaten by Romans.

I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?

But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad," and "Paul wasn't really in prison often," after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right? And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel? Or just that magical atheist power of make believe?

By the way, since you are a materialist who believes only what he can sense, how can you comment with such perspicuity and insight as to how and where Paul was imprisoned two millennia ago?

Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians as to the length of Paul's imprisonments (and can read Paul's mind to tell us exactly where he writes truth and where he writes lies) what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?

"But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad,""

That's not what I wrote. I wrote that Paul was probably not treated as harshly as you make out by Roman officials. I was not making a general comment about conditions in Roman prisons.Big Grin
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06-02-2016, 04:34 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2016 05:03 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What, then, is this, which I wrote in post 123...

"The whole prison thing has been exaggerated. He had pen and paper wherever he was. He was a Roman citizen. He did nothing that the Roman government could have considered unlawful, other than disturbing the peace. They kept him for two years in a palace at Caesaria... not a prison... for his own protection. He wrote letters from Rome sending greetings from the Imperial Palace... you don't do that if you're a prisoner."

Since then you have asked the same question about 6 times, despite me telling you I had already replied.

About now you will be pondering over your next master stroke...probably hitting me with a question why Paul was repeatedly beaten by Romans.

I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?

But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad," and "Paul wasn't really in prison often," after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right? And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel? Or just that magical atheist power of make believe?

By the way, since you are a materialist who believes only what he can sense, how can you comment with such perspicuity and insight as to how and where Paul was imprisoned two millennia ago?

Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians as to the length of Paul's imprisonments (and can read Paul's mind to tell us exactly where he writes truth and where he writes lies) what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?


"By the way, since you are a materialist..."

materialist |məˈtɪərɪəlɪst|
noun
1 a person who considers material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values

Oh! So I'm a materialist Huh because I don't believe your crap?Facepalm

Your ad hominems, which have nothing to do with the discussion, are pathetic.
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06-02-2016, 04:59 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2016 01:50 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(05-02-2016 02:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-02-2016 09:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What, then, is this, which I wrote in post 123...

"The whole prison thing has been exaggerated. He had pen and paper wherever he was. He was a Roman citizen. He did nothing that the Roman government could have considered unlawful, other than disturbing the peace. They kept him for two years in a palace at Caesaria... not a prison... for his own protection. He wrote letters from Rome sending greetings from the Imperial Palace... you don't do that if you're a prisoner."

Since then you have asked the same question about 6 times, despite me telling you I had already replied.

About now you will be pondering over your next master stroke...probably hitting me with a question why Paul was repeatedly beaten by Romans.

I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of scriptures. He didn't write, he had scribes visiting him in prison. Are you that unaware that the epistles say things like, "From Paul and Silas..." or "I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord..."?

But you may have solved the issue by telling us "Roman prisons weren't really all that bad," and "Paul wasn't really in prison often," after all, only 4 of 13 epistles were penned from prison, that's only like a third of Paul's ministry, right? And you know better than secular historians on these matters because of, um, time travel? Or just that magical atheist power of make believe?

By the way, since you are a materialist who believes only what he can sense, how can you comment with such perspicuity and insight as to how and where Paul was imprisoned two millennia ago?

Or are you simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES?

So it is high time for a fresh question:

Since you seem to know better than religious AND secular historians as to the length of Paul's imprisonments (and can read Paul's mind to tell us exactly where he writes truth and where he writes lies) what is your source(s) for your "proofs" in this debate?

Q, you need to present some facts or reasoned opinions if you hope to have some credibility here.

Consider an analogy. If I were to claim

"2 + 1 = 3"

It's not good enough to reply

"2 + 1 = 4, and "we" can inductively prove it, but I can't be bothered"

or

"I cannot debate someone with such a base misunderstanding of maths. Are you that unaware that I like to write with green chalk?"

or

"you are a materialist"

or

"I'm a great debater and you're not"

or

"You are simply using logic, ascendant, triumphant, immutable logic, believing, sir, that logical values are ABSOLUTES"

This doesn't cut the mustard in a debate. You need to present your own case for your beliefs. The readers want to know why you think 2 + 1 = 4.

Yet you consistently fail to explain your arguments, and just assume you are correct, and you spout ad hominems, which makes you sound like an opinionated fool and bores our readers.
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