Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
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02-04-2016, 04:17 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 03:16 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(28-03-2016 10:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:FACT 1. Paul Knew Almost Nothing of Jesus

This does not make Paul a charlatan. Firstly, Paul never claimed to have met Jesus beyond the Damascus Road, one time—if he had, he would have been a charlatan.

Secondly, one of Paul’s main points, frequently repeated, is that when he learned about what Jesus did say and do from other eyewitnesses, He could find over and again that Jesus was promised in Old Testament prophecy.

Thirdly, you did write something true:

Quote: Paul didn’t give a fig tree about the details of Jesus’ life, family, miracles or his teachings. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...not-much/, http://www.sonofman.org/paul1.htm). The only thing that mattered to him was that a Christ was crucified and resurrected. Paul rambled on and on about the supposed significance of Christ’s death and resurrection, not about the details of Christ’s life.

This last is called by evangelicals “witnessing the gospel”. I’ve shared the gospel at TTA many times. Not once did I say “you have to believe it because Jesus did miracles” or “you have to believe the gospel because Jesus had a great family”. I have said—as did Paul and as did OTHER NT writers—you should believe the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection because it fulfills Tanakh prophecy.

While I don’t blame you as an embittered TTAtheist for rejecting the death and resurrection of the beautiful Savior, the fact that you assume someone is insincere (a charlatan) because they emphasize and proselytize the death and resurrection of Jesus shows a VERY strong bias against most Christians who have ever lived—and while I’ve met some fake or self-concealing Christian people—you are just being snotty and rude. Stop it.

Quote: What is more, Paul did not claim he did miracles, so he didn't lie about this, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Along with most of the rest of the garbage you’ve posted recently and throughout our debate, I’ve already reproved you, but you are too busy whining to read what I wrote. I’ve already (Once? Twice?) cited Paul’s statement in Romans 15 that he personally did miracles in furthering the gospel.

Quote: "a man writes multiple documents testified to by... multiple outside sources..."

You are referring to Paul. Please tell our readers what you mean by "testified to". Then tell us exactly what has been "testified to." Then please tell our readers who these "multiple outside sources" are. You have insisted on contemporary evidence from myself, so please apply the same standard to your own argument... I want to know who the contemporary multiple outside sources you refer to are.

Um, you’re a typical atheist who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right? You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus, so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus—if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right? I mean, I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person—but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?

Quote: FACT 2: Paul just made up his own theology - Christian theology

I think this last is arguable, particularly since Paul says every three to ten verses or so, “just like it says in Tanakh…”.
Regardless, you are in the realm of commentary again, not fact, since there are millions of people who would agree with you but something like two billion people who think you are just trying to drive a wedge among believers.

"Secondly, one of Paul’s main points, frequently repeated, is that when he learned about what Jesus did say and do from other eyewitnesses..."

Whoa there! You think Paul learned about Jesus from "other" eyewitnesses? I can understand that might be your assumption. Yet it's not true. There is not one place, in all of Paul's writing, where he discusses how he learned about Jesus from anyone who actually knew Jesus. I challenge you to expand on your assumption and prove me wrong.


He (Paul) could find over and again that Jesus was promised in Old Testament prophecy.

So you keep saying, yet you are talking nonsense. There is no
- son of God
- who died as a sacrifice for everyone's sins
- who you must have faith in to get into heaven

in the Old Testament. This is Pauline bullshit. What that means is that you and others of your ilk, who go about “witnessing the gospel,” are flogging a dead horse. There is no substance to back up your beliefs. Jews today know it, as do all thinking, honest people who can be bothered investigating the claim. End of story.
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02-04-2016, 04:32 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 03:26 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(28-03-2016 10:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:FACT 1. Paul Knew Almost Nothing of Jesus

This does not make Paul a charlatan. Firstly, Paul never claimed to have met Jesus beyond the Damascus Road, one time—if he had, he would have been a charlatan.

Secondly, one of Paul’s main points, frequently repeated, is that when he learned about what Jesus did say and do from other eyewitnesses, He could find over and again that Jesus was promised in Old Testament prophecy.

Thirdly, you did write something true:

Quote: Paul didn’t give a fig tree about the details of Jesus’ life, family, miracles or his teachings. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...not-much/, http://www.sonofman.org/paul1.htm). The only thing that mattered to him was that a Christ was crucified and resurrected. Paul rambled on and on about the supposed significance of Christ’s death and resurrection, not about the details of Christ’s life.

This last is called by evangelicals “witnessing the gospel”. I’ve shared the gospel at TTA many times. Not once did I say “you have to believe it because Jesus did miracles” or “you have to believe the gospel because Jesus had a great family”. I have said—as did Paul and as did OTHER NT writers—you should believe the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection because it fulfills Tanakh prophecy.

While I don’t blame you as an embittered TTAtheist for rejecting the death and resurrection of the beautiful Savior, the fact that you assume someone is insincere (a charlatan) because they emphasize and proselytize the death and resurrection of Jesus shows a VERY strong bias against most Christians who have ever lived—and while I’ve met some fake or self-concealing Christian people—you are just being snotty and rude. Stop it.

Quote: What is more, Paul did not claim he did miracles, so he didn't lie about this, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Along with most of the rest of the garbage you’ve posted recently and throughout our debate, I’ve already reproved you, but you are too busy whining to read what I wrote. I’ve already (Once? Twice?) cited Paul’s statement in Romans 15 that he personally did miracles in furthering the gospel.

Quote: "a man writes multiple documents testified to by... multiple outside sources..."

You are referring to Paul. Please tell our readers what you mean by "testified to". Then tell us exactly what has been "testified to." Then please tell our readers who these "multiple outside sources" are. You have insisted on contemporary evidence from myself, so please apply the same standard to your own argument... I want to know who the contemporary multiple outside sources you refer to are.

Um, you’re a typical atheist who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right? You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus, so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus—if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right? I mean, I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person—but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?

Quote: FACT 2: Paul just made up his own theology - Christian theology

I think this last is arguable, particularly since Paul says every three to ten verses or so, “just like it says in Tanakh…”.
Regardless, you are in the realm of commentary again, not fact, since there are millions of people who would agree with you but something like two billion people who think you are just trying to drive a wedge among believers.

While I don’t blame you as an embittered TTAtheist for rejecting the death and resurrection of the beautiful Savior,

These are the words of a thoroughly brainwashed person who has failed to explore the historical facts.

I am not "embittered." I just don't believe bullshit. I simply laugh at Paul's spiel about his Christ. There is nothing to "reject."

The real Jesus, if he even existed, was a failed insurrectionist... nothing more and nothing less. There is nothing particularly "beautiful" about that. The fact that you use such words reveals how deeply embroiled in all this nonsense you really are. If you read the gospels' and Paul's ramblings in their entirety and with an objective eye, you'd not find anything particularly "beautiful" therein.

What is more, there was no resurrection. Dead people never walk again. Paul made that shit up, and it was ADDED to Mark's gospel, and incorporated or added to the other 3 gospels.
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02-04-2016, 04:39 PM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2016 11:05 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(28-03-2016 10:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:FACT 1. Paul Knew Almost Nothing of Jesus

This does not make Paul a charlatan. Firstly, Paul never claimed to have met Jesus beyond the Damascus Road, one time—if he had, he would have been a charlatan.

Secondly, one of Paul’s main points, frequently repeated, is that when he learned about what Jesus did say and do from other eyewitnesses, He could find over and again that Jesus was promised in Old Testament prophecy.

Thirdly, you did write something true:

Quote: Paul didn’t give a fig tree about the details of Jesus’ life, family, miracles or his teachings. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...not-much/, http://www.sonofman.org/paul1.htm). The only thing that mattered to him was that a Christ was crucified and resurrected. Paul rambled on and on about the supposed significance of Christ’s death and resurrection, not about the details of Christ’s life.

This last is called by evangelicals “witnessing the gospel”. I’ve shared the gospel at TTA many times. Not once did I say “you have to believe it because Jesus did miracles” or “you have to believe the gospel because Jesus had a great family”. I have said—as did Paul and as did OTHER NT writers—you should believe the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection because it fulfills Tanakh prophecy.

While I don’t blame you as an embittered TTAtheist for rejecting the death and resurrection of the beautiful Savior, the fact that you assume someone is insincere (a charlatan) because they emphasize and proselytize the death and resurrection of Jesus shows a VERY strong bias against most Christians who have ever lived—and while I’ve met some fake or self-concealing Christian people—you are just being snotty and rude. Stop it.

Quote: What is more, Paul did not claim he did miracles, so he didn't lie about this, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Along with most of the rest of the garbage you’ve posted recently and throughout our debate, I’ve already reproved you, but you are too busy whining to read what I wrote. I’ve already (Once? Twice?) cited Paul’s statement in Romans 15 that he personally did miracles in furthering the gospel.

Quote: "a man writes multiple documents testified to by... multiple outside sources..."

You are referring to Paul. Please tell our readers what you mean by "testified to". Then tell us exactly what has been "testified to." Then please tell our readers who these "multiple outside sources" are. You have insisted on contemporary evidence from myself, so please apply the same standard to your own argument... I want to know who the contemporary multiple outside sources you refer to are.

Um, you’re a typical atheist who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right? You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus, so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus—if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right? I mean, I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person—but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?

Quote: FACT 2: Paul just made up his own theology - Christian theology

I think this last is arguable, particularly since Paul says every three to ten verses or so, “just like it says in Tanakh…”.
Regardless, you are in the realm of commentary again, not fact, since there are millions of people who would agree with you but something like two billion people who think you are just trying to drive a wedge among believers.

"but something like two billion people who think you are just trying to drive a wedge among believers."

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

It is you who is
"in the realm of commentary again, not fact"

What is more, you are trying to distract from my arguments by questioning my motives.
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02-04-2016, 04:44 PM
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(02-04-2016 04:39 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

Eppur si muove. Thumbsup

#sigh
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02-04-2016, 04:51 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 03:30 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(28-03-2016 10:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:FACT 1. Paul Knew Almost Nothing of Jesus

This does not make Paul a charlatan. Firstly, Paul never claimed to have met Jesus beyond the Damascus Road, one time—if he had, he would have been a charlatan.

Secondly, one of Paul’s main points, frequently repeated, is that when he learned about what Jesus did say and do from other eyewitnesses, He could find over and again that Jesus was promised in Old Testament prophecy.

Thirdly, you did write something true:

Quote: Paul didn’t give a fig tree about the details of Jesus’ life, family, miracles or his teachings. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...not-much/, http://www.sonofman.org/paul1.htm). The only thing that mattered to him was that a Christ was crucified and resurrected. Paul rambled on and on about the supposed significance of Christ’s death and resurrection, not about the details of Christ’s life.

This last is called by evangelicals “witnessing the gospel”. I’ve shared the gospel at TTA many times. Not once did I say “you have to believe it because Jesus did miracles” or “you have to believe the gospel because Jesus had a great family”. I have said—as did Paul and as did OTHER NT writers—you should believe the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection because it fulfills Tanakh prophecy.

While I don’t blame you as an embittered TTAtheist for rejecting the death and resurrection of the beautiful Savior, the fact that you assume someone is insincere (a charlatan) because they emphasize and proselytize the death and resurrection of Jesus shows a VERY strong bias against most Christians who have ever lived—and while I’ve met some fake or self-concealing Christian people—you are just being snotty and rude. Stop it.

Quote: What is more, Paul did not claim he did miracles, so he didn't lie about this, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Along with most of the rest of the garbage you’ve posted recently and throughout our debate, I’ve already reproved you, but you are too busy whining to read what I wrote. I’ve already (Once? Twice?) cited Paul’s statement in Romans 15 that he personally did miracles in furthering the gospel.

Quote: "a man writes multiple documents testified to by... multiple outside sources..."

You are referring to Paul. Please tell our readers what you mean by "testified to". Then tell us exactly what has been "testified to." Then please tell our readers who these "multiple outside sources" are. You have insisted on contemporary evidence from myself, so please apply the same standard to your own argument... I want to know who the contemporary multiple outside sources you refer to are.

Um, you’re a typical atheist who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right? You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus, so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus—if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right? I mean, I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person—but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?

Quote: FACT 2: Paul just made up his own theology - Christian theology

I think this last is arguable, particularly since Paul says every three to ten verses or so, “just like it says in Tanakh…”.
Regardless, you are in the realm of commentary again, not fact, since there are millions of people who would agree with you but something like two billion people who think you are just trying to drive a wedge among believers.

I’ve already (Once? Twice?) cited Paul’s statement in Romans 15 that he personally did miracles in furthering the gospel.

Let's consider the passage in Romans 15 I assume you are referring to...

"18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation"

Sorry Q...not convincing. No miracles there. Let's imagine you were trying to sell me a new religion, and you genuinely thought you did miracles. You wouldn't be writing
"I can do mighty things."

Rather, we'd get the specifics...
" Listen hear, you atheist. I can turn Macca into Kentucky fried. I raised my grandma from the dead! My handkerchief can pull party tricks! I'm not wasting my time selling you shit. I got an audience to play to..." Cool

There are Pauline miracles in the book of Acts...written decades after Paul had disappeared by an unknown person who didn't even know Paul. To augment Paul’s authority, the author alleged Paul was a miracle maker. Paul supposedly made a blind man see again, (Acts 13:6–12) a lame man walk, (Acts 14:8–10) raised a youngster from the dead, (Acts 20:7–20) and survived a lethal snakebite (Acts 28:3–7.) Even his handkerchief cured the sick and cast out evil spirits (Acts 19:12.) His stunts were just as jaw dropping as Jesus’! Yet if Paul, desperate to be believed, had pulled off these party tricks, he would have waxed lyrical about them in his letters. He doesn’t because he didn’t.

It is interesting that in verse 20 Paul implies that there are other "Christs" ie there are other wandering preachers who have invented their own versions of a Christ. Paul doesn't want to tread on their toes..."another man's foundation"...as long as the plebs believe in some nonsense about a Christ (and not necessarily his) that will do...because it undermines militaristic Judaism and "makes the Gentiles obedient." Thumbsup
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02-04-2016, 05:40 PM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2016 07:12 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(28-03-2016 10:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:FACT 1. Paul Knew Almost Nothing of Jesus

This does not make Paul a charlatan. Firstly, Paul never claimed to have met Jesus beyond the Damascus Road, one time—if he had, he would have been a charlatan.

Secondly, one of Paul’s main points, frequently repeated, is that when he learned about what Jesus did say and do from other eyewitnesses, He could find over and again that Jesus was promised in Old Testament prophecy.

Thirdly, you did write something true:

Quote: Paul didn’t give a fig tree about the details of Jesus’ life, family, miracles or his teachings. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...not-much/, http://www.sonofman.org/paul1.htm). The only thing that mattered to him was that a Christ was crucified and resurrected. Paul rambled on and on about the supposed significance of Christ’s death and resurrection, not about the details of Christ’s life.

This last is called by evangelicals “witnessing the gospel”. I’ve shared the gospel at TTA many times. Not once did I say “you have to believe it because Jesus did miracles” or “you have to believe the gospel because Jesus had a great family”. I have said—as did Paul and as did OTHER NT writers—you should believe the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection because it fulfills Tanakh prophecy.

While I don’t blame you as an embittered TTAtheist for rejecting the death and resurrection of the beautiful Savior, the fact that you assume someone is insincere (a charlatan) because they emphasize and proselytize the death and resurrection of Jesus shows a VERY strong bias against most Christians who have ever lived—and while I’ve met some fake or self-concealing Christian people—you are just being snotty and rude. Stop it.

Quote: What is more, Paul did not claim he did miracles, so he didn't lie about this, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Along with most of the rest of the garbage you’ve posted recently and throughout our debate, I’ve already reproved you, but you are too busy whining to read what I wrote. I’ve already (Once? Twice?) cited Paul’s statement in Romans 15 that he personally did miracles in furthering the gospel.

Quote: "a man writes multiple documents testified to by... multiple outside sources..."

You are referring to Paul. Please tell our readers what you mean by "testified to". Then tell us exactly what has been "testified to." Then please tell our readers who these "multiple outside sources" are. You have insisted on contemporary evidence from myself, so please apply the same standard to your own argument... I want to know who the contemporary multiple outside sources you refer to are.

Um, you’re a typical atheist who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right? You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus, so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus—if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right? I mean, I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person—but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?

Quote: FACT 2: Paul just made up his own theology - Christian theology

I think this last is arguable, particularly since Paul says every three to ten verses or so, “just like it says in Tanakh…”.
Regardless, you are in the realm of commentary again, not fact, since there are millions of people who would agree with you but something like two billion people who think you are just trying to drive a wedge among believers.

"Um, you’re a typical atheist who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right? You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus, so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus—if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right? I mean, I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person—but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?"

I've read this multiple times...I can't make head nor tail of whatever points you are trying to make. Please explain.

"Um, you’re a typical atheist..."

There is no such thing.

"who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right?"

Well I know this to be true. It is undeniable historical fact. I don't think any evangelical types, such as yourself, think anything different.

You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus,

Yes, and you appear to have agreed with me.

so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus

Huh? There is not one new Testament writer who claimed they knew Jesus. Some of them wrote about Jeebus, (unlike Paul) but none of them knew Jesus.

Consider the gospels. The identity of an author is the primary factor that gives any historical document its legitimacy, yet the real identities of "Matthew, "Mark", "Luke" and "John" aren’t well documented anywhere in church history. These names have no relation to the authors of the Gospels.

Numerous people, mostly anonymous, edited each Gospel, during at least a 200 year period, so it’s impossible to genuinely accredit one person with the sole authorship of any of the canonical accounts.

It was a common practice in the first and second centuries to attribute Christian writings to well-known persons to lend them authority. For example, Paul didn’t write many of “his” letters; they were falsely attributed to him and were, therefore, forgeries. In ancient times this dishonest practice wasn’t regarded as negatively as it is today.

Matthew and John might have been two of Jesus’ original disciples. Luke was a physician who accompanied Paul on some of his missionary journeys. Mark was the son of a woman named Mary who had a house in Jerusalem, and it was claimed there was another Mark who was an acquaintance of the disciple Peter. None of these people, if they ever existed, were the authors. The four names simply sounded authoritative, so they were tacked on to the Gospels in the late second century.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states,

“The canonical Gospels were regarded as of Apostolic authority…” incorrectly implying they were written by the apostles, and continues,

“two of them being ascribed to the Apostles St. Matthew and St. John, respectively, and two to St. Mark and St. Luke, the respective companions of St. Peter and St. Paul.”

“Being ascribed to” is not the same as “were written by.” These are the sorts of word games some evangelical authors use when describing Jesus’ history.

The first record of anybody using the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was by Irenaeus of Lyon in about 180-90 CE, 150 odd years after Jesus’ ministry. “Luke” was probably originally written some years before this time, because Marcion was aware of an abbreviated version of Luke, although not called Luke, in the 140s CE (http://www.marcion.info/).

Some writings from early church commentators, written prior to 190 CE, record some of the teachings of Jesus that are similar to those recorded in the four Gospels, but they never attributed quotes to any of the four authors.

We can only have educated guesses about when and from where the Gospels’ authors sourced their scoops because these details aren’t in the bible, and early church fathers and historians were unable or refused or neglected to document them. If this weren’t the bible, today’s historians would soon lose interest in studying the Gospels as history.

The Gospels are crucial components of the bible, so numerous scholars over the centuries have spent countless hours considering just how they might be related to Yeshua, if at all. Their conclusions often don’t concur because there just aren’t enough facts to work with.

If you think otherwise please provide some evidence.

if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right?

Please be specific and tell our readers who "they" are. Please tell us what they verify about Paul.

"I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person"

I'd keep that to myself if I were you... too many people will recognise you as a deluded fanatic if you don't.

but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?

Correct. What's your point?
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02-04-2016, 06:11 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 03:10 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(28-03-2016 10:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:FACT 1. Paul Knew Almost Nothing of Jesus

This does not make Paul a charlatan. Firstly, Paul never claimed to have met Jesus beyond the Damascus Road, one time—if he had, he would have been a charlatan.

Secondly, one of Paul’s main points, frequently repeated, is that when he learned about what Jesus did say and do from other eyewitnesses, He could find over and again that Jesus was promised in Old Testament prophecy.

Thirdly, you did write something true:

Quote: Paul didn’t give a fig tree about the details of Jesus’ life, family, miracles or his teachings. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...not-much/, http://www.sonofman.org/paul1.htm). The only thing that mattered to him was that a Christ was crucified and resurrected. Paul rambled on and on about the supposed significance of Christ’s death and resurrection, not about the details of Christ’s life.

This last is called by evangelicals “witnessing the gospel”. I’ve shared the gospel at TTA many times. Not once did I say “you have to believe it because Jesus did miracles” or “you have to believe the gospel because Jesus had a great family”. I have said—as did Paul and as did OTHER NT writers—you should believe the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection because it fulfills Tanakh prophecy.

While I don’t blame you as an embittered TTAtheist for rejecting the death and resurrection of the beautiful Savior, the fact that you assume someone is insincere (a charlatan) because they emphasize and proselytize the death and resurrection of Jesus shows a VERY strong bias against most Christians who have ever lived—and while I’ve met some fake or self-concealing Christian people—you are just being snotty and rude. Stop it.

Quote: What is more, Paul did not claim he did miracles, so he didn't lie about this, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Along with most of the rest of the garbage you’ve posted recently and throughout our debate, I’ve already reproved you, but you are too busy whining to read what I wrote. I’ve already (Once? Twice?) cited Paul’s statement in Romans 15 that he personally did miracles in furthering the gospel.

Quote: "a man writes multiple documents testified to by... multiple outside sources..."

You are referring to Paul. Please tell our readers what you mean by "testified to". Then tell us exactly what has been "testified to." Then please tell our readers who these "multiple outside sources" are. You have insisted on contemporary evidence from myself, so please apply the same standard to your own argument... I want to know who the contemporary multiple outside sources you refer to are.

Um, you’re a typical atheist who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right? You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus, so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus—if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right? I mean, I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person—but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?

Quote: FACT 2: Paul just made up his own theology - Christian theology

I think this last is arguable, particularly since Paul says every three to ten verses or so, “just like it says in Tanakh…”.
Regardless, you are in the realm of commentary again, not fact, since there are millions of people who would agree with you but something like two billion people who think you are just trying to drive a wedge among believers.

"you should believe the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection because it fulfills Tanakh prophecy."

No it doesn't. "The gospel of Christ's death and resurrection" was Paul's weak attempt to convince people that the Jewish messiah had already been and gone. Even today there has yet to be a Jewish messiah...ask any Jew...they should know.

What is more, even if Christ's death and supposed resurrection did "fulfill Tanakh prophecy," why wouldn't I, using your ridiculous reasoning, "believe" someone like, say, David Koresh, who also repeatedly used Old Testament ideas to "prove" his version of nonsense. Consider the following...

"David Koresh's Seven Seals Teaching
by James Trimm

David Koresh taught that there had been various gospels throughout time (Seven Seals Manuscript, p. 6, Koresh). He also taught that the Spirit or Mind of God had been offered to man at various times in various ways. One of these was the giving of prophets which comprise the Old Testament (Livingstone Fagan Interview, 7-24-93, pp. 17-18). (This is seen as being pictured in Ezekiel 2:9-3:7).

When God's offering of the Spirit was rejected, another expression of the Thought or Spirit was given in the flesh as Jesus Christ (Ibid., p. 10). Jesus is seen making this offer in Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 where the keys are seen as "binding or loosing" the seven seals. Koresh taught that when Jesus Christ was rejected another plan of salvation due to man's ignorance was enacted when Christ said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) (Ibid., pp. 15, 17-19). After making this statement, that Spirit which Jesus Christ offered was commended into the hands of the Father (Luke 23:46) (Ibid., p. 8).

Based on 1 Peter 1:305, David Koresh taught, that in the last days another new plan of salvation would be revealed (Seven Seals Manuscript, p. 6).

Since the Spirit, or Mind of God which was offered to man had been commended to the hands of the Father, then it must be asked, what is in the Fathers hands? In Revelation 5:1 the Father has a book sealed with seven seals in his right hand, so this must be that same Mind of God (Fagan Interview, pp. 8, 10). Koresh believed that it was significant that Christ/the Lamb in the Heavenly Sanctuary was able to do something at the right hand of the throne because of his having been slain (Revelation 5; Hebrews 8 and 9). In Revelation 5 he is opening the seals, and in Hebrews 8 and 9 he is becoming mediator of the New Covenant, thus the New Covenant, Koresh taught, is a newly revealed plan of salvation as the Mind of God is offered to man through the Seven Seals (Seven Seals Manuscript, p. 6).

According to Koresh, when the Lamb comes he comes with his "reward" (Revelation 22:12) not our reward. This reward is the Lamb's reward - what the Lamb was worthy of for having been slain. It is the only reward the Lamb receives in Revelation and is, according to Koresh, the Seven Sealed book (based on Revelation 5).

Koresh further supports these claims with Isaiah 40:10 and and 62:11 (Fagan Interview, pp. 9; 30; Second KRLD announcement; 58 min. message). Now according to Koresh, based on Revelation 10:7, his seventh angels message is the contents of this sealed book (see Revelation 10 inclusive) (30 second KRLD announcement; "Divided We Stand - Divided We Fall," by David Koresh). And since only the Lamb can open these seals (Revelation 5) and it is the Lamb who brings his reward (Revelation 22:12) Koresh must be the Lamb (Fagan Interview, pp. 11, 22).

The First Seal

The first seal (Revelation 6:1-2) according to Koresh, is The Marriage of the Lamb. Koresh said the key to this seal is Psalm 45 and is the same event as Revelation 19. Koresh taught that this seal depicts the marriage of the Lamb to the Holy Spirit ("Eden to Eden," Seven Seals Manuscript). He derived this concept from the teachings of his predecessors.

Lois Roden taught that the woman in Revelation 12:1 was Eve and that she was created in the image of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the woman of Revelation 12:1 also represents the Holy Spirit (By His Spirit... "Behold Thy Mother," p. 6). She further identified the Holy Spirit as the "bride" of Revelation 19 (Ibid., pp. 7-8).

Victor Houteff, founder of the Davidians Seventh-Day Adventist Association, taught that the man on the white horse in Revelation 6:2 was Adam (Tract 15, pp. 39-41). Now Christ is the second Adam. This individual is then wedded to Eve (Revelation 19:7-11).

The Marriage of the Lamb, then, is revealing that Koresh is obtaining unity with the Godhead. Those with him in Revelation 19:14 are also on white horses and also dressed in marriage garments. So, they must be about to obtain unity with the Godhead too. Thus the first seal, the marriage of the Lamb, reveals that those who believe that David Koresh is the Christ and accept the Seven Seals will obtain unity with the Godhead.

The Second Seal

The key to the second seal (Revelation 6:3-4) is found in Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-8 and is also depicted in such places as Ezekiel 9 and Revelation 7 and Revelation 19. In this seal, God makes war with man and kills all who do not have the seal (those who have rejected Koresh's message) (Revelation 7 and Ezekiel 9).

The Third Seal

The key to this seal is Hosea 3; 12:7. In this seal there is a merchant offering something. That something, according to Koresh, has to do with paying for a marriage (Hosea 3). This deal has a very high price which does not seem fair to the ways of man, thus the merchant has "deceitful scales" (Hosea 12:7) and appears to be charging an outrageous price (Revelation 6:5-6). This is also the topic of the parable of the Pearl of Great Price (Matthew 13:45-46). What is offered is the first Seal (the marriage of the Lamb). The alternative is the second Seal. This merchant offers the Seven Seals, but one must be willing to pay a very high price. The price is one's self, which leads into the fourth seal, Death (Revelation 6:7-8).

The Fourth Seal

The fourth seal (Revelation 6:7-8) is Death, and the grave follows after it. The language of this seal given in Revelation 6:8 refers back to Ezekiel 5:12, 17. This section of Ezekiel (Chapters 4 and 5) describes the seige on Jerusalem by Babylon. To the Branch Davidians, Jerusalem here refers to Mt. Carmel, and Babylon refers to the world. To the Branch Davidians, this siege is the one which began on 28 February 1993 at Mt. Carmel and lasted 51 days. Brad Branch, one of the Branch Davidians who exited Mt. Carmel, said that in his final, private, Bible study Koresh claimed the Mt. Carmel standoff was also the siege described in Zechariah 14:2. Koresh said those like Branch who left were those who "shall go into captivity" (Zechariah 14:2). Koresh also told Branch that the "chariots" that "come with flaming torches" in Nahum 2:3-4 were the tanks outside.

The Branch Davidians see these events as a microcosm of a final battle between the kingdoms of men and the Kingdom of God. They expect literal Jerusalem to be attacked in a similar battle shortly before the coming of God and the return of the Lamb (Koresh).

The Fifth Seal

The fifth seal (Revelation 6:9-11) reveals the souls under the altar. These are those who died under the fourth seal. They are wearing white robes. Their numbers are being added to and will have a specific number when completed (v. 11). It is apparent that they are the 144,000 (Revelation 7 and 14) and are the ones who are at the marriage of the Lamb in Revelation 19. The 144,000 are called the "first fruits" (Revelation 14:4). They are divided into two parts, the initial group of Seal four, and those added to them. The Branch Davidians call the initial group the "wave sheaf." This is because there are two first fruits offerings in the feasts of Israel. The first is the "wave shear" made during Passover. The second is the "wave loaf" made during Pentecost.

To the Branch Davidians the fifth seal is a waiting period of 3 1/2 years from the death of the fourth seal (19 April 1993) to the judgement of the sixth seal. A major key to this seal is Psalm 74 obtained in an interview with Livingstone Faga in March of 1993 (before the fire of April 19th). In Psalm 74 individuals are, like those in Revelation 6:9-11, asking how long God will wait before making judgement . In Psalm 74 we are told that the sanctuary and meeting places of God had been burned to the ground (v. 7-8) that their "signs" (the Branch Davidian banner) were no longer seen, and that their prophet (Koresh) is no longer with them (v. 9). But judgement will come from the right hand of God (v. 11) and God will take vengeance. This hand, of course, contains the Seven Sealed book (Revelation 5:1). Thus, by October 1996, the Davidians foresee the Second Coming of Koresh and the final judgement of the world.

The Sixth Seal

The sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-7:17) involves cosmic disturbances associated with the return of the Lamb, and the coming of the day of Judgement . There are several Keys to this seal, Joel 2; Isaiah 13; Habakkuk. 3; Ecclesiastes 12 & Psalm 139 (Compare also Matthew 24:29-31). According to Koresh, the sun would be darkened because it would be eclipsed by the Merkabah (mobile throne pictured in Ezekiel 1).

The Seventh Seal

The seventh seal (Revelation 8:1) is the "new song" which the 144,000 have learned (Rv. 14:3) from the messianic figure in Psalm 40 (Ps. 40:3) and is identified with the song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32) and relates to the Kingdom to come. Koresh told his followers that they would not fully understand this seal until his return. Katherine Matson (who had been Lois Roden's secretary) says that the seventh seal brings us full circle back to the first, so that if one receives the first seal, he is part of the 144,000."

Huh

The above convoluted ramble is very similar to Paul's confusing, poorly expressed, inconsistent musings.

So...Q...tell me the difference between David Koresh and Paul.Drinking Beverage

Both Koresh and Paul, after all, each thought they were the Christ, or near enough to it.Shy

Both used nonsense to promote nonsense.

Both were charlatans.

Why is Paul any more legitimate than David Koresh?Big Grin
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RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
List of people claimed to be Jesus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a partial list of notable people who have been claimed, either by themselves or by their followers, to in some way be the reincarnation or incarnation of Jesus, or the Second Coming of Christ.

Ann Lee (1736–1784), the founder and leader of the Shakers. Lee's followers referred to her as "Mother," believing that she was the female incarnation of Christ on Earth.[1]

19th century[edit]

John Nichols Thom (1799–1838), a Cornish tax rebel who claimed to be the "saviour of the world" and the reincarnation of Jesus Christ in 1834. He was killed by British soldiers at the Battle of Bossenden Wood, on May 31, 1838 in Kent, England.[2]

Arnold Potter (1804–1872), Schismatic Latter Day Saint leader; he claimed the spirit of Jesus Christ entered into his body and he became "Potter Christ" Son of the living God. He died in an attempt to "ascend into heaven" by jumping off a cliff. His body was later retrieved and buried by his followers.[3]

Jones Very (1813–1880), American essayist, poet, literary scholar, and Greek tutor at Harvard who befriended several prominent American Transcendentalists and suffered a nervous breakdown in 1837 after which he claimed to have become the Second Coming of Jesus.

Bahá'u'lláh (1817–1892), born Shiite, adopted Bábism later in 1844,[4] he claimed to be the prophesied fulfillment and Promised One of three major religions. He founded the Bahá'í Faith in 1863.[5] Followers of the Bahá'í Faith believe that the fulfillment of the prophecies of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the prophecies of the 5th Buddha Maitreya and many other religious prophecies, were begun by the Báb in 1844 and then by Bahá'u'lláh. They commonly compare the fulfillment of Christian prophecies to Jesus' fulfillment of Jewish prophecies, where in both cases people were expecting the literal fulfillment of apocalyptic statements.[6]

William W. Davies (1833–1906), leader of a Latter Day Saint schismatic group called the Kingdom of Heaven located in Walla Walla, Washington from 1867 to 1881. He taught his followers that he was the archangel Michael, who had previously lived as the biblical Adam, Abraham, and David. When his son Arthur was born on February 11, 1868, Davies declared that the infant was the reincarnated Jesus Christ.[7][8] When Davies's second son, David, was born in 1869, he was declared to be God the Father.[7]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, India (1835–1908), claimed to be the awaited Mahdi as well as (Second Coming) and likeness of Jesus the promised Messiah at the end of time. He claimed to be Jesus in the metaphorical sense; in character. He founded the Ahmadiyya Movement in 1889, envisioning it to be the rejuvenation of Islam, and claimed to be commissioned by God for the reformation of mankind.

Lou de Palingboer (1898–1968), the founder and figurehead of a new religious movement in the Netherlands, who claimed to be "the resurrected body of Jesus Christ".

20th century[edit]

John Hugh Smyth Pigott (1852–1927). Around 1890 Smyth-Pigott started leading meetings of the Agapenomite community and recruited 50 young female followers to supplement its ageing population. He took Ruth Anne Preece as his second wife and she had three children named Glory, Power and Hallelujah.[9] By 1902 his fame had spread as far as India, from where Mirza Ghulam Ahmad warned him of his false teachings and predicted his miserable end. The house which may have belonged to Smyth-Pigott in St John's Wood was visited by John Betjeman in his film Metro-land. It is built in the neo-gothic style. It is currently the home of the television presenter Vanessa Feltz and was previously the home of Charles Saatchi.[10] Smyth-Pigott died in 1927 and the sect gradually declined until the last member, sister Ruth, died in 1956.[11] Her funeral in 1956 was the only time when outsiders were admitted to the chapel.[12]

Haile Selassie I (1892–1975) did not claim to be Jesus and disapproved of claims that he was Jesus, but the Rastafari movement, which emerged in Jamaica during the 1930s, believes he is the Second Coming. He embodied this when he became Emperor of Ethiopia in 1930, perceived as confirmation of the return of the Messiah in the prophetic Book of Revelation 5:5 in the New Testament but is also expected to return a second time to initiate the apocalyptic day of judgment. He is also called Jah Ras Tafari, and is often considered to be alive by Rastafari movement members.[13]
Ernest Norman (1904–1971), an American electrical engineer who co-founded the Unarius Academy of Science in 1954, was allegedly Jesus in a past life and his earthly incarnation was as an archangel named Raphael.[14] He claimed to be the reincarnation of other notable figures including Confucius, Mona Lisa, Benjamin Franklin, Socrates, Queen Elizabeth I, and Tsar Peter I the Great.[15]

Krishna Venta (1911–1958), born Francis Herman Pencovic in San Francisco, founded the WKFL (Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith and Love) Fountain of the World cult in Simi Valley, California in the late 1940s. In 1948 he stated that he was Christ, the new messiah and claimed to have led a convoy of rocket ships to Earth from the extinct planet Neophrates. He died on December 10, 1958 after being suicide bombed by two disgruntled former followers who accused Venta of mishandling cult funds and having been intimate with their wives.

Ahn Sahng-Hong (1918–1985), a South Korean who founded the New Covenant Passover Church of God in 1964 and who is considered by the World Mission Society Church of God as the Second Coming of Jesus. The World Mission Society Church of God believes that Zahng Gil-jah is "God the Mother," who they believe is referred to in the Bible as the New Jerusalem Mother (Galatians 4:260), and that Ahn Sahng-Hong is God the Father[16]

Sun Myung Moon (1920–2012), believed by members of the Unification Church to be the Messiah and the Second Coming of Christ, fulfilling Jesus' unfinished mission. Church members ("Unificationists") consider Sun Myung Moon and his wife, Hak Ja Han, to be the True Parents of humankind as the restored Adam and Eve.[17][18]

Jim Jones (1931–1978), founder of Peoples Temple, which started off as an offshoot of a mainstream protestant sect before becoming a personality cult as time went on. He claimed to be the reincarnation of Jesus, Akhenaten, Buddha, Vladimir Lenin, and Father Divine in the 1970s.[19] Organized a mass murder suicide at Jonestown, Guyana on November 18, 1978.[20] He shot himself after the murders were done.

Marshall Applewhite (1931–1997), an American who posted a Usenet message declaring, "I, Jesus—Son of God—acknowledge on this date of September 25/26, 1995: ..."[21] Applewhite and his Heaven's Gate cult committed mass suicide on March 26, 1997 to rendezvous with what they thought was a spaceship hiding behind the comet Hale-Bopp.[22]

Yahweh ben Yahweh (1935–2007), born as Hulon Mitchell, Jr., a black nationalist and separatist who created the Nation of Yahweh in 1979 in Liberty City, Florida. His self-proclaimed name means "God, Son of God." He could have only been deeming himself to be "son of God", not God, but many of his followers clearly deem him to be God Incarnate.[23][24] In 1992, he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder and sentenced to 18 years in prison.[25]

Laszlo Toth (1938–2012), Hungarian-born Australian who claimed he was Jesus Christ as he vandalized Michelangelo's Pietà with a geologist's hammer in 1972.[26][27]
Wayne Bent (1941–), also known as Michael Travesser of the Lord Our Righteousness Church. He claims; "I am the embodiment of God. I am divinity and humanity combined."[28] He was convicted on December 15, 2008 of one count of criminal sexual contact of a minor and two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor in 2008.[29]

Ariffin Mohammed (1943–), also known as "Ayah Pin", the founder of the banned Sky Kingdom in Malaysia in 1975. He claims to have direct contact with the heavens and is believed by his followers to be the incarnation of Jesus, as well as Shiva, and Buddha, and Muhammad.[30]

Mitsuo Matayoshi (1944–), a conservative Japanese politician, who in 1997 established the World Economic Community Party based on his conviction that he is God and Christ, renaming himself Iesu Matayoshi. According to his program he will do the Last Judgment as Christ but within the current political system.[31][32]

José Luis de Jesús Miranda (1946–2013), Puerto Rican founder, leader and organizer of Growing in Grace based in Miami, Florida, who claimed that the resurrected Christ "integrated himself within me" in 2007.[33]

Inri Cristo (1948–), a Brazilian who claims to be the second Jesus reincarnated in 1969,[34] Brasília is considered by Inri Cristo and his disciples as the New Jerusalem of the Apocalypse.

Thomas Harrison Provenzano[35] (1949–2000), an American convicted murderer who was possibly mentally ill. He compared his execution with Jesus Christ's crucifixion.[36]

Shoko Asahara (1955–), founded the controversial Japanese religious group Aum Shinrikyo in 1984. He declared himself Christ, Japan's only fully enlightened master and the Lamb of God. His purported mission was to take upon himself the sins of the world. He outlined a doomsday prophecy, which included a Third World War, and described a final conflict culminating in a nuclear Armageddon, borrowing the term from the Book of Revelation 16:16.[37] Humanity would end, except for the elite few who joined Aum.[37] The group gained international notoriety in March 20, 1995, when it carried out the Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway. He has been sentenced to death, and is awaiting execution.

David Koresh (1959–1993), born Vernon Wayne Howell, was the leader of a Branch Davidian religious sect in Waco, Texas, though never directly claiming to be Jesus himself, proclaimed that he was the final prophet and "the Son of God, the Lamb" in 1983. In 1993, a raid by the U.S. BATF, and the subsequent siege by the FBI ended with Branch Davidian ranch burning to the ground. Koresh, 54 adults and 21 children were found dead after the fire extinguished itself.[38]

Hogen Fukunaga (1945–) founded Ho No Hana Sanpogyo, often called the "foot reading cult," in Japan in 1987 after an alleged spiritual event where he claimed to have realized he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha.[39]

Marina Tsvigun (1960–), or Maria Devi Christos, is the leader of the Great White Brotherhood.[40] In 1990 she met Yuri Krivonogov, the Great White Brotherhood founder, who recognized Marina as a new messiah and later married her, assuming in the sect the role of John the Baptist, subordinate to Tsvigun.

Sergey Torop (1961–), a Russian who claims to be "reborn" as Vissarion, Jesus Christ returned, which makes him not "God" but the "word of God." He founded the Church of the Last Testament and the spiritual community Ecopolis Tiberkul in Southern Siberia in 1990.[41]

Maurice Clemmons (1972–2009) an American felon responsible for the 2009 murder of four police officers in Washington state, referred to himself in May 2009 as Jesus.[42]
21st century[edit]

Apollo Quiboloy (1950–) is the founder and leader of a Philippines-based Restorationist church, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, The Name Above Every Name, Inc. He has made claims that he is the "Appointed Son of God."[citation needed]

Alan John Miller (1962–), more commonly known as A.J. Miller, a former Jehovah's Witness elder and current leader of the Australia-based Divine Truth movement.[43] Miller claims to be Jesus Christ reincarnated with others in the 20th century to spread messages that he calls the "Divine Truth." He delivers these messages in seminars and various forms of media along with his current partner Mary Suzanne Luck, who identifies herself as the returned Mary Magdalene.[44]

David Shayler (1965–) was a former MI5 agent and whistleblower who, in the summer of 2007, proclaimed himself to be the Messiah. He has released a series of videos on YouTube claiming to be Jesus, although he has not built up any noticeable following since his claims.[45][46][47]

Oscar Ramiro Ortega-Hernandez (1990–). In November 2011, he fired nine shots with an Romanian Cugir SA semi-automatic rifle at the White House in Washington D.C., believing himself to be Jesus Christ sent to kill U.S. President Barack Obama, whom he believed to be the antichrist.[48][49]

Lightning Deng (2014), a woman whom the Chinese Eastern Lightning cult believe to be the reincarnation of Christ.[citation needed]

Brian Leonard Golightly Marshall, a man who claims to have a letter from Pope Benedict XVI that confirms that he is the reincarnation of Christ, and that the Shroud of Turin is his image.[50][51]"


The above wikipedia article has left out one very important character...Saint Paul...


“Take me for your model, as I take Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1, NJB.) Paul thought he was the next best thing to God; that he was the personal deputy of his deity.

A few years later Paul wrote,

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Gal. 2:20, KJV.)

By then God’s right hand man had become God himself. Facepalm His shoddily disguised delusions of grandeur were pathetic. Big Grin
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02-04-2016, 08:30 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2016 05:04 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
(28-03-2016 10:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:FACT 1. Paul Knew Almost Nothing of Jesus

This does not make Paul a charlatan. Firstly, Paul never claimed to have met Jesus beyond the Damascus Road, one time—if he had, he would have been a charlatan.

Secondly, one of Paul’s main points, frequently repeated, is that when he learned about what Jesus did say and do from other eyewitnesses, He could find over and again that Jesus was promised in Old Testament prophecy.

Thirdly, you did write something true:

Quote: Paul didn’t give a fig tree about the details of Jesus’ life, family, miracles or his teachings. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamin...not-much/, http://www.sonofman.org/paul1.htm). The only thing that mattered to him was that a Christ was crucified and resurrected. Paul rambled on and on about the supposed significance of Christ’s death and resurrection, not about the details of Christ’s life.

This last is called by evangelicals “witnessing the gospel”. I’ve shared the gospel at TTA many times. Not once did I say “you have to believe it because Jesus did miracles” or “you have to believe the gospel because Jesus had a great family”. I have said—as did Paul and as did OTHER NT writers—you should believe the gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection because it fulfills Tanakh prophecy.

While I don’t blame you as an embittered TTAtheist for rejecting the death and resurrection of the beautiful Savior, the fact that you assume someone is insincere (a charlatan) because they emphasize and proselytize the death and resurrection of Jesus shows a VERY strong bias against most Christians who have ever lived—and while I’ve met some fake or self-concealing Christian people—you are just being snotty and rude. Stop it.

Quote: What is more, Paul did not claim he did miracles, so he didn't lie about this, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Along with most of the rest of the garbage you’ve posted recently and throughout our debate, I’ve already reproved you, but you are too busy whining to read what I wrote. I’ve already (Once? Twice?) cited Paul’s statement in Romans 15 that he personally did miracles in furthering the gospel.

Quote: "a man writes multiple documents testified to by... multiple outside sources..."

You are referring to Paul. Please tell our readers what you mean by "testified to". Then tell us exactly what has been "testified to." Then please tell our readers who these "multiple outside sources" are. You have insisted on contemporary evidence from myself, so please apply the same standard to your own argument... I want to know who the contemporary multiple outside sources you refer to are.

Um, you’re a typical atheist who thinks the Bible canon came hundreds of years after the documents themselves, right? You’ve claimed Paul knew nothing about Jesus, so all those other NT writers who wrote and showed they knew Jesus—if they verify Paul—are outside verifications, right? I mean, I personally believe God wrote the NT, one person—but you do think it was written by multiple sources, right?

Quote: FACT 2: Paul just made up his own theology - Christian theology

I think this last is arguable, particularly since Paul says every three to ten verses or so, “just like it says in Tanakh…”.
Regardless, you are in the realm of commentary again, not fact, since there are millions of people who would agree with you but something like two billion people who think you are just trying to drive a wedge among believers.

I wrote "FACT 2: Paul just made up his own theology - Christian theology"

To which you replied...

"I think this last is arguable,"

Gee Q, I would have thought you would have been more strongly convinced that I am wrong about this. If I'm right, you know that means, don't you? It means you've based your entire theology on a fiction, on the unsubstantiated ramblings of a nobody (Paul). It means you are following a charlatan; an ancient version of a Jim Jones, or a David Koresh, or, in fact any streetbox preacher spouting their interpretation of scripture to a stupefied audience. Paul was no different to these; he just happened to end up in the babble.
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04-04-2016, 05:30 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2016 03:50 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Mark Fulton vs Q..."Was Paul a Charlatan"
"I have come to make God real in the lives of people. My only desire is to establish the great work of Jesus Christ on our troubled globe. I have taken the true scriptures to heart, where it declares in Phillipians 2 for us to “let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God” (and we are all created in His image and likeness-form). I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I (my personal ambitions), but Christ liveth in me”.

God is Love, therefore whoever reincarnates love more fully should be followed: As Paul the apostle related in yesteryear, “follow me as I follow Christ”. I am causing untold thousands to believe in the Jesus of ancient history by the great miracles of healings, prophecies and discernments I perform in His name! Many have believed God to be dead until I showed them that He is as tangible as the food they eat and the air they breathe. Oh what a privilege it is to live in this recognition and be able to personify the Mind and Works of God in Christ, therefore enabling the pure in heart to see God, and know Him aright, which is life eternal."


Jim Jones Gasp “Witnessing the gospel”. Consider
Facepalm
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