Mark's version of "Jesus"
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03-08-2015, 12:43 AM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(02-08-2015 03:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 01:32 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Mark, I am suggesting that the following is a false dichotomy

"So if Yeshua existed, either Josephus chose not to write about him, or early Christians destroyed his record because it did not fit with their manufactured image."

It is a false dichotomy because the dichotomy you wrote above is not jointly exhaustive. There are other alternatives why we have nothing written by Josephus regarding the crucifixion of Christ. Your hand waving away of those alternatives does magically change your false dichotomy into a true dichotomy.

I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong. I am saying the thinking you used to get to your conclusion is flawed. Thus your conclusion is less credible than it otherwise would be if your thinking was robust.

You're rather obsessive compulsive aren't you! You've read 4 or 5 paragraphs , latched on to a (rather unimportant) idea, repeated yourself 3 or 4 times, don't seem to have appreciated the details around your argument, and still haven't read the rest of the post.

Yes, it is possible that Rufus, Josephus' dog, opened up all 10 copies of "Wars of the Jews" and ate page 212 in each. This page contained the true account of Jesus Christ, and Josephus and all the other readers in the late first, second and third centuries failed to notice that it was missing.

Or it could have been aliens who removed the page. Or god.

Or Josephus, the official government historian, someone who had ample means to disseminate his works, wrote a book or a pamphlet about Jesus, which everyone, including all those 2nd and 3rd century Christians, failed to notice.

These are all theoretical, yet highly unlikely possibilities. So, you're right. There, do you feel better now?

Any chance you can let go, and actually read my post? You, of all people, should be fascinated by the history.

Mark,

We don't know how many of the manuscripts actually survived from classical antiquity but a widely used number is 10%

http://www.historyofinformation.com/narr...mation.php

You have to keep in mind that over thousands of years there are a lot of fires, floods, ship wrecks, raiding of caravans by bandits, decomposition, repeated sacking of cities, etc. With the destruction rate of texts from this period being so high, it is simply unlikely that all the text of Josephus Flavius survived.

Your claim that the speculated text, if it existed, was most likely destroyed by Christians simply lacks any merit.

Further to even claim the works of Josephus Flavius have survived intact, you have to independently know how many of works Josephus wrote and then compare that number to how many actually survived. For instance suppose you found a stone that read,"Here lies Josephus Flavius, Author of 10 books" and you find 9 books written by him....then yes you can say his works survived largely intact.

However if all you find is 9 books, how do you know the guy didn't write 20 books or more? Claims that anyone's works survived intact are dubious.

Now on to another subject, the only reason I opened your thread because I thought you were making some parody about Jesus or you were describing what you would do if you were Jesus. Had the title of your thread indicated you were writing a book to argue that biblical Jesus didn't exist, I would have bothered with it.

Last, don't be so butthurt that I gave you a little criticism. Not having blatant logical fallacies in a book like this is a pretty important. You should be thankful when people point them out as it allows you an opportunity to reframe your arguments in a logical way.
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03-08-2015, 12:46 AM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(02-08-2015 03:59 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  You have to understand, Mark, HJ is looking for someone to debate and no one will oblige, for the reasons you just listed. So he is making you his huckleberry.

I'm not interested in debating Mark. He is too wordy. I'm not saying I would never debate him. He isn't on my list of people I won't debate because they are dishonest douchebag asswipe lying sacks of shits. He just wouldn't be my preferred opponent.
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03-08-2015, 12:48 AM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(02-08-2015 05:43 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 03:59 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  You have to understand, Mark, HJ is looking for someone to debate and no one will oblige, for the reasons you just listed. So he is making you his huckleberry.

He is kind of like that turd that is just hanging on for dear life and won't fall into the bowl.

(02-08-2015 06:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 05:43 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  He is kind of like that turd that is just hanging on for dear life and won't fall into the bowl.

Dingleberry.

I forgive you both
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03-08-2015, 06:18 AM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(03-08-2015 12:43 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 03:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You're rather obsessive compulsive aren't you! You've read 4 or 5 paragraphs , latched on to a (rather unimportant) idea, repeated yourself 3 or 4 times, don't seem to have appreciated the details around your argument, and still haven't read the rest of the post.

Yes, it is possible that Rufus, Josephus' dog, opened up all 10 copies of "Wars of the Jews" and ate page 212 in each. This page contained the true account of Jesus Christ, and Josephus and all the other readers in the late first, second and third centuries failed to notice that it was missing.

Or it could have been aliens who removed the page. Or god.

Or Josephus, the official government historian, someone who had ample means to disseminate his works, wrote a book or a pamphlet about Jesus, which everyone, including all those 2nd and 3rd century Christians, failed to notice.

These are all theoretical, yet highly unlikely possibilities. So, you're right. There, do you feel better now?

Any chance you can let go, and actually read my post? You, of all people, should be fascinated by the history.

Mark,

We don't know how many of the manuscripts actually survived from classical antiquity but a widely used number is 10%

http://www.historyofinformation.com/narr...mation.php

You have to keep in mind that over thousands of years there are a lot of fires, floods, ship wrecks, raiding of caravans by bandits, decomposition, repeated sacking of cities, etc. With the destruction rate of texts from this period being so high, it is simply unlikely that all the text of Josephus Flavius survived.

Your claim that the speculated text, if it existed, was most likely destroyed by Christians simply lacks any merit.

Further to even claim the works of Josephus Flavius have survived intact, you have to independently know how many of works Josephus wrote and then compare that number to how many actually survived. For instance suppose you found a stone that read,"Here lies Josephus Flavius, Author of 10 books" and you find 9 books written by him....then yes you can say his works survived largely intact.

However if all you find is 9 books, how do you know the guy didn't write 20 books or more? Claims that anyone's works survived intact are dubious.

Now on to another subject, the only reason I opened your thread because I thought you were making some parody about Jesus or you were describing what you would do if you were Jesus. Had the title of your thread indicated you were writing a book to argue that biblical Jesus didn't exist, I would have bothered with it.

Last, don't be so butthurt that I gave you a little criticism. Not having blatant logical fallacies in a book like this is a pretty important. You should be thankful when people point them out as it allows you an opportunity to reframe your arguments in a logical way.

Look, it's not that he was irritated at you for trying to point out a false dichotomy. He was irritated at you for clinging to something that was not even remotely central to his entire arguement. You could have eliminated those lines and the post would have not really been any different. If his entire position rested on that dichotomy, then yes, you have every right to point it out. In this case however, you are really being more of an annoying douchebag. Especially after you stated that you didn't care about the topic and didn't read the entire post. I think that most of the posters on this thread understood that the first time through the read but apparently you were too handicapped to get that even after Mark pointed it out to you more than once. So please let it go.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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03-08-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(03-08-2015 06:18 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(03-08-2015 12:43 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Mark,

We don't know how many of the manuscripts actually survived from classical antiquity but a widely used number is 10%

http://www.historyofinformation.com/narr...mation.php

You have to keep in mind that over thousands of years there are a lot of fires, floods, ship wrecks, raiding of caravans by bandits, decomposition, repeated sacking of cities, etc. With the destruction rate of texts from this period being so high, it is simply unlikely that all the text of Josephus Flavius survived.

Your claim that the speculated text, if it existed, was most likely destroyed by Christians simply lacks any merit.

Further to even claim the works of Josephus Flavius have survived intact, you have to independently know how many of works Josephus wrote and then compare that number to how many actually survived. For instance suppose you found a stone that read,"Here lies Josephus Flavius, Author of 10 books" and you find 9 books written by him....then yes you can say his works survived largely intact.

However if all you find is 9 books, how do you know the guy didn't write 20 books or more? Claims that anyone's works survived intact are dubious.

Now on to another subject, the only reason I opened your thread because I thought you were making some parody about Jesus or you were describing what you would do if you were Jesus. Had the title of your thread indicated you were writing a book to argue that biblical Jesus didn't exist, I would have bothered with it.

Last, don't be so butthurt that I gave you a little criticism. Not having blatant logical fallacies in a book like this is a pretty important. You should be thankful when people point them out as it allows you an opportunity to reframe your arguments in a logical way.

Look, it's not that he was irritated at you for trying to point out a false dichotomy. He was irritated at you for clinging to something that was not even remotely central to his entire arguement. You could have eliminated those lines and the post would have not really been any different. If his entire position rested on that dichotomy, then yes, you have every right to point it out. In this case however, you are really being more of an annoying douchebag. Especially after you stated that you didn't care about the topic and didn't read the entire post. I think that most of the posters on this thread understood that the first time through the read but apparently you were too handicapped to get that even after Mark pointed it out to you more than once. So please let it go.

Exactly. Thankyou.
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03-08-2015, 03:02 PM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
Ah but see that's their style. Focus on one tiny piece of information that they can start an entire shit storm over to distract from the point as a whole; which completely eviscerates their silly belief system. He doesn't want to read the entire post because he knows Mark's educational background on the subject as compared to his is like comparing the dick of a sperm whale to that of a field mouse.

You just don't measure Heywood. Now sit the fuck back down while the rest of the class enjoys their education.
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03-08-2015, 03:04 PM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(02-08-2015 05:08 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 12:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  First I simply do not care about the subject.

In that case, Heywood Jahfuckoff?

I wanna have your babies!
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03-08-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(03-08-2015 12:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 05:43 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  He is kind of like that turd that is just hanging on for dear life and won't fall into the bowl.

(02-08-2015 06:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Dingleberry.

I forgive you both

I forgive you for forgiving me.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-08-2015, 05:45 PM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(03-08-2015 03:04 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 05:08 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  In that case, Heywood Jahfuckoff?

I wanna have your babies!

Drooling

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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03-08-2015, 09:58 PM
RE: Mark's version of "Jesus"
(03-08-2015 03:02 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Ah but see that's their style. Focus on one tiny piece of information that they can start an entire shit storm over to distract from the point as a whole; which completely eviscerates their silly belief system. He doesn't want to read the entire post because he knows Mark's educational background on the subject as compared to his is like comparing the dick of a sperm whale to that of a field mouse.

You just don't measure Heywood. Now sit the fuck back down while the rest of the class enjoys their education.

Aw...thanks. It's nice to be appreciated.
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