Martial arts.
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06-04-2016, 08:27 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2016 08:35 AM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Martial arts.
I used to take one class for a while, it was alright but the moves were pretty difficult to remember/impractical. I basically just forgot those and remembered the more useful parts of the class, which wasn't a lot, but I think I know how to defend myself still. I'd love to learn more martial arts, just don't have the money.

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06-04-2016, 08:35 AM
RE: Martial arts.
(06-04-2016 08:27 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  I used to take one class for a while, it was alright but the moves were pretty difficult to remember/impractical. I basically just forgot those and remembered the more useful parts of the class, which wasn't a lot, but I think I know how to defend myself still.

Maybe you had a bad instructor. I think with anything, whoever teaches the class makes all the difference. If you are still interested in Martial Arts, I would give it another shot. Smile I know you live in CA too, if you are interested in KM, my school is ah-mazing. If you are interested in classes, pm me, and I'll give you the info on the place I go.
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06-04-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Martial arts.
I'd actually go so far as to say that the vast majority of schools and instructors, and even disciplines in general, are based on either untested hypotheses or multi generation duplicates that have gone equally untested for decades or even centuries.

I've become quite picky when choosing a school, and make a point of looking for someone who understands the concept of skeptical analyses rather than relying on the typical ninja wannabe BS of "it's too deadly to test, so just take our word for it that it really worked 400 years ago."

Look for something with concepts regularly tested, whether in military applications, law enforcement, or sport.

Though competition rarely goes the way a real fight would to, the increasing popularity of sports like MMA is nonetheless good for the exposing of flawed concepts. Nothing like watching a self proclaimed master of Bullshido get stomped into the ground by good old fashioned boxing or wrestling Smile

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06-04-2016, 10:39 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2016 10:43 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Martial arts.
(06-04-2016 09:01 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I'd actually go so far as to say that the vast majority of schools and instructors, and even disciplines in general, are based on either untested hypotheses or multi generation duplicates that have gone equally untested for decades or even centuries.

I've become quite picky when choosing a school, and make a point of looking for someone who understands the concept of skeptical analyses rather than relying on the typical ninja wannabe BS of "it's too deadly to test, so just take our word for it that it really worked 400 years ago."

Look for something with concepts regularly tested, whether in military applications, law enforcement, or sport.

Though competition rarely goes the way a real fight would to, the increasing popularity of sports like MMA is nonetheless good for the exposing of flawed concepts. Nothing like watching a self proclaimed master of Bullshido get stomped into the ground by good old fashioned boxing or wrestling Smile

The problem of using martial sports to assess the efficiency of a martial art is that martial sports are limited by rules and stages. MMA, which is frequently mentioned as a testing ground, has prohibition against several types of technics. For example, you can't strike with fingers, biting, and neither target eyes, the back of the head (only the sides), neck, throat or genitals for very obvious reasons. This makes application of martial arts like Mantis or White Crane kung fu for example impossible in a MMA ring. That's why, despite being called Mixed Martial Arts, MMA fighter are using almost exclusively basic kick-boxing and judo technics with some variant here and there. The issue with thinking that what works in the ring works in the street, is that the street is a hell of a lot more brutal and unfair. A classical boxing stance will see your balls pulverised or you knee cap dislocated by swift kick on which you have little training to defend yourself. A MMA classical charge and grapple could cost you an eye or a broken neck faced with someone trained to face such tactics. Martial sports are excellent to raise physical fitness for combat, teach good basic technic and combat reflex. The problem is when they are matched against martial arts whose system of combat is deeper and more complex. They quickly start to lose ground. Martial sports are also very fitness dependant while martial arts are more experience dependant.

Even military and law enforcement application of martial arts are limited. Law enforcement trains and uses mostly none lethal immobilisation technics. They also are avoiding strangulation and nerve pinches because they can quickly be dangerous. Police officers aren't trained to kill or maim with their bare hands and yet that's what most traditional martial arts were designed for. As for military personnel, very few of them will achieve a level of training higher than basic (AKA the equivalent of a black belt in karate). Most trainers aren't experimented hand to hand fighter in life or death situation, but regular martial practitioner with a military background and some expertise in their given martial art (for example most military trainer will achieve a rank comparable to 5th or 6th Dan in karate). Very few soldiers will use their close combat skills outside of training. The martial art they will use most of the time is the use of firearms and group tactics, not hand to hand combat.

In my opinion what makes a good school of martial art, as far as good self defense training is what you are searching for are the following. Note that they aren't in order of importance.

1) The ability of the teacher to explain martial combat theory in details.

2) Favor a training approach that capitalised on the physical aptitude required to excel in the martial in question and generally understand how the human body works and how martial art can do to improve physical fitness.

3) Understand and expose the strength and weakness of the martial in question (they all have some, there is no «ultimate martial art»).

4) Favors sparring session and partner training regularly without forgetting the importance of solitary training.

5) Doesn't require a specific uniform unless there is a good reason for it (like Judo for example).

6) Is ready to tailor is training up to a certain point to adapt to your style, personality and physical capacities.

7) Is capable to recognise that considering your physical condition another type of martial art might be more appropriate for you.

8) The teacher can demonstrate his abilities in variety of context if needed.

9) The teacher can prove that his formation is worth something by demonstrating his teaching degree is backed by a reputable organisation or at the very least with strong verifiable ties with a known and reputable «master» of the martial art.

10) Doesn't actively mix mythology, magic or pseudohistory with his teaching. (Learning about the myth, stories and legends of a specific martial art is very good and a good teacher should know a lot about them, but he should clearly separate training from cultural background and not let those stories influence your perception of what combat is). Know the real and recent history of his martial art.

11) It doesn't train children bellow the age of 12 in active self defense.

12) Doesn't require a premium for progression mark (AKA pay for your belt/rank).

13) Doesn't steal from other culture uselessly.

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06-04-2016, 11:23 AM
RE: Martial arts.
The first style I ever learn was street boxing. My grandfather and uncle taught me tricks of intimidation and using what's at hand to take an on an aponint. My grandfather was a WW2 vet and I heard a few stories of him killing people with his bare hands. In my late teens I learned and taught Isshin-ryū for about 7 years. I never made black belt although I probable could have. I had to stop it while going threw college because there where no schools near me at the time. I did fight in one or two local MMA competitions. But didn't win any. Me being kind of broke was defiantly major factor for my decline.

I've been looking to learn a new style but money still comes into play. I've been looking at Krav Maga, Capoeira, Kung-Fu. or Jeet Kune Do.

I helped me majorly in high school. Had a few bullies that left me alone after they saw I wasn't defenseless anymore.

To add to epronovost points I never like seeing little children learning to fight. One because if ever put against someone that would pose a real threat play fighting wasn't going to help.

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07-04-2016, 10:47 PM
RE: Martial arts.
I'm in a constantly conflicted state regarding martial arts. I studied Chinese martial arts for about 7 years, dropped out for a bit, did a bit of jujitsu, had another dry period of about a decade, then joined a Shotokan school and got up to purple belt before having to quit due to chronic knee and foot problems (osteoarthritis and fibromyalgia, mainly).

I keep thinking I should try again, this time with boxing, but the accumulated pain and stiffness is saying "Don't you dare."
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08-04-2016, 05:23 AM
RE: Martial arts.
(06-04-2016 05:45 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I did karate for a bit in high school, I'm taking Krav Maga classes now. I love it, definitely empowering. I feel a lot safer in various situations knowing I have an ability to protect myself. My instructor's not bad to look at either Wink

For martial arts movies, I liked Kill Bill, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Enter the Dragon, and the Karate Kid (Ralph Macchio was the subject of my crushes back in the day Wink )


One lesson I learned from my SAS instructor was when in close quarters, spit in the enemy's eyes. There is an auto reflex that shuts the eyes. One can then knee the attacker, if male, in the genitals. I used to teach this in my anti rape classes.

(06-04-2016 05:48 AM)Loom Wrote:  I did some Tai Chi for about a year to help cope with anxiety. I won't be able to fight anyone worth a darn but...it was definetly fun and relaxing Tongue

Kinda wish I spent more of my childhood on martial arts and gymnastics. I really wanna try doing parkour but I haven't even got the coordination to properly vault the railing of our porch xD

I have learned that with practice, one can develop co ordination. I have seen it in music and martial arts.

I too enjoyed Tai Chi but do not consider it a fighting style.

(06-04-2016 07:29 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Martial arts have always been a big part of my life, and for more than one reason.

But first, in regards to the whole gun vs. martial art thing that inevitably comes up Tongue:

... The two do not have to be in contradiction to each other. While a gun is usually a more practical choice when the option is available and the outcome of using it acceptable, this is not always the case. And on the other side of the debate, cowardice has nothing to do with the choice. Not for me, anyway. It's purely a matter of what works and what does not. As a soldier, the idea of me running into a modern battlefield with the intent of favoring hand to hand combat over a firearm would be absolutely ludicrous. An outlier here and there where it works does not change that. Even in the days of the samurai, going into combat empty handed was a last resort.

That said, there are certainly many situations, both in the military and in the civilian world, where martial arts are applicable. Contrary to popular belief, we do not run around killing everything we see. Whether searching potentially dangerous people at a checkpoint or taking people into custody who have surrendered, we have frequent hand to hand contact with potential hostiles in situations where getting to a firearm in a spur of the moment encounter might not be possible.

Back in civilization, it's all the more critical. When working in corrections, for example, which I'll be returning to in about a month, all those ground control and joint manipulation techniques are put to use on a near daily basis. Obviously during actual altercations, but also in other encounters one wouldn't necessarily define as a fight. When I'm up close and vulnerable during a patdown, if I didn't know what to look for, the first sign of a hostile inmate might be their elbow slamming into my head. But as someone who has spent the last 20 years in various martial arts, it's become instinctive to pay attention to their posture, the way they're balancing themselves, etc. If they're going to take a swing at me, thanks to martial arts I'm going to intuitively pick up on it and react before they actually take the swing. If I'm trying to cuff someone after an altercation, understanding how every joint works aids me in controlling them with minimal use of force and without injuring them, helping to ensure both their safety and mine.

But beyond all the practical stuff, it's always always been an important part of my social network. You might say martial arts takes the place of religion, in a way. I take part in community events put on by the school, hang out with people I train with, etc. While I don't believe in concepts like qi, I'd say practicing martial arts is nonetheless about the closest to spirituality I'm going to find without actually become spiritual.

Well the military and the battlefield are very different to a street confrontation. I'd prefer to lock someone in a submission hold then kill them with a gun. Far less time spent in gaol.

(06-04-2016 07:39 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(06-04-2016 07:29 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Martial arts have always been a big part of my life, and for more than one reason.

But first, in regards to the whole gun vs. martial art thing that inevitably comes up Tongue:

... The two do not have to be in contradiction to each other. While a gun is usually a more practical choice when the option is available and the outcome of using it acceptable, this is not always the case. And on the other side of the debate, cowardice has nothing to do with the choice. Not for me, anyway. It's purely a matter of what works and what does not. As a soldier, the idea of me running into a modern battlefield with the intent of favoring hand to hand combat over a firearm would be absolutely ludicrous. An outlier here and there where it works does not change that. Even in the days of the samurai, going into combat empty handed was a last resort.

That said, there are certainly many situations, both in the military and in the civilian world, where martial arts are applicable. Contrary to popular belief, we do not run around killing everything we see. Whether searching potentially dangerous people at a checkpoint or taking people into custody who have surrendered, we have frequent hand to hand contact with potential hostiles in situations where getting to a firearm in a spur of the moment encounter might not be possible.

Back in civilization, it's all the more critical. When working in corrections, for example, which I'll be returning to in about a month, all those ground control and joint manipulation techniques are put to use on a near daily basis. Obviously during actual altercations, but also in other encounters one wouldn't necessarily define as a fight. When I'm up close and vulnerable during a patdown, if I didn't know what to look for, the first sign of a hostile inmate might be their elbow slamming into my head. But as someone who has spent the last 20 years in various martial arts, it's become instinctive to pay attention to their posture, the way they're balancing themselves, etc. If they're going to take a swing at me, thanks to martial arts I'm going to intuitively pick up on it and react before they actually take the swing. If I'm trying to cuff someone after an altercation, understanding how every joint works aids me in controlling them with minimal use of force and without injuring them, helping to ensure both their safety and mine.

But beyond all the practical stuff, it's always always been an important part of my social network. You might say martial arts takes the place of religion, in a way. I take part in community events put on by the school, hang out with people I train with, etc. While I don't believe in concepts like qi, I'd say practicing martial arts is nonetheless about the closest to spirituality I'm going to find without actually become spiritual.

I feel that way about yoga in terms of spirituality without actually being spiritual.

As a woman, I like being able to know what it feels like to hit, punch, kick a guy who's bigger than me. I think all women should take classes like these. I would always try to get away from a precarious situation first, but if I can't, I like knowing I have some level of skill to protect myself. If I have a daughter, she would definitely be taking martial arts classes like the little girl in the gif.

Wrestling is excellent for females because most fights end on the ground. Plus training is in direct contact with other students. Not so often the case in many other styles. Getting used to reacting human to human is exceedingly important.

(06-04-2016 07:53 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(06-04-2016 07:39 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I feel that way about yoga in terms of spirituality without actually being spiritual.

As a woman, I like being able to know what it feels like to hit, punch, kick a guy who's bigger than me. I think all women should take classes like these. I would always try to get away from a precarious situation first, but if I can't, I like knowing I have some level of skill to protect myself. If I have a daughter, she would definitely be taking martial arts classes like the little girl in the gif.

I'm anxious to get my son into it. Most of the places around here will accept kids starting at age 5. But now that I'm going to be going back to corrections, that will mean moving to Ottawa and therefore changing schools.

Looking at this one. The lineup of instructors includes both one specialized in training military and law enforcement and one specialized in training kids. One of the guys who runs it was also a former IDF marine. Anxious to check out the facility Smile

I think 5 is too young. The bones are too soft. 8 is a better age in my experience.

(06-04-2016 08:27 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  I used to take one class for a while, it was alright but the moves were pretty difficult to remember/impractical. I basically just forgot those and remembered the more useful parts of the class, which wasn't a lot, but I think I know how to defend myself still. I'd love to learn more martial arts, just don't have the money.

Many styles are simply out dated. Gishin Funikoshi in his book described being attacked in Tokyo post WWII. He stepped into a horse stance and took hold of his attackers genitals until the police arrived.

Some old moves still work. Smile

(06-04-2016 09:01 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I'd actually go so far as to say that the vast majority of schools and instructors, and even disciplines in general, are based on either untested hypotheses or multi generation duplicates that have gone equally untested for decades or even centuries.

I've become quite picky when choosing a school, and make a point of looking for someone who understands the concept of skeptical analyses rather than relying on the typical ninja wannabe BS of "it's too deadly to test, so just take our word for it that it really worked 400 years ago."

Look for something with concepts regularly tested, whether in military applications, law enforcement, or sport.

Though competition rarely goes the way a real fight would to, the increasing popularity of sports like MMA is nonetheless good for the exposing of flawed concepts. Nothing like watching a self proclaimed master of Bullshido get stomped into the ground by good old fashioned boxing or wrestling Smile

Again, many are simply old.

(06-04-2016 10:39 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(06-04-2016 09:01 AM)yakherder Wrote:  I'd actually go so far as to say that the vast majority of schools and instructors, and even disciplines in general, are based on either untested hypotheses or multi generation duplicates that have gone equally untested for decades or even centuries.

I've become quite picky when choosing a school, and make a point of looking for someone who understands the concept of skeptical analyses rather than relying on the typical ninja wannabe BS of "it's too deadly to test, so just take our word for it that it really worked 400 years ago."

Look for something with concepts regularly tested, whether in military applications, law enforcement, or sport.

Though competition rarely goes the way a real fight would to, the increasing popularity of sports like MMA is nonetheless good for the exposing of flawed concepts. Nothing like watching a self proclaimed master of Bullshido get stomped into the ground by good old fashioned boxing or wrestling Smile


The problem of using martial sports to assess the efficiency of a martial art is that martial sports are limited by rules and stages. MMA, which is frequently mentioned as a testing ground, has prohibition against several types of technics. For example, you can't strike with fingers, biting, and neither target eyes, the back of the head (only the sides), neck, throat or genitals for very obvious reasons. This makes application of martial arts like Mantis or White Crane kung fu for example impossible in a MMA ring. That's why, despite being called Mixed Martial Arts, MMA fighter are using almost exclusively basic kick-boxing and judo technics with some variant here and there. The issue with thinking that what works in the ring works in the street, is that the street is a hell of a lot more brutal and unfair. A classical boxing stance will see your balls pulverised or you knee cap dislocated by swift kick on which you have little training to defend yourself. A MMA classical charge and grapple could cost you an eye or a broken neck faced with someone trained to face such tactics. Martial sports are excellent to raise physical fitness for combat, teach good basic technic and combat reflex. The problem is when they are matched against martial arts whose system of combat is deeper and more complex. They quickly start to lose ground. Martial sports are also very fitness dependant while martial arts are more experience dependant.

Even military and law enforcement application of martial arts are limited. Law enforcement trains and uses mostly none lethal immobilisation technics. They also are avoiding strangulation and nerve pinches because they can quickly be dangerous. Police officers aren't trained to kill or maim with their bare hands and yet that's what most traditional martial arts were designed for. As for military personnel, very few of them will achieve a level of training higher than basic (AKA the equivalent of a black belt in karate). Most trainers aren't experimented hand to hand fighter in life or death situation, but regular martial practitioner with a military background and some expertise in their given martial art (for example most military trainer will achieve a rank comparable to 5th or 6th Dan in karate). Very few soldiers will use their close combat skills outside of training. The martial art they will use most of the time is the use of firearms and group tactics, not hand to hand combat.

In my opinion what makes a good school of martial art, as far as good self defense training is what you are searching for are the following. Note that they aren't in order of importance.

1) The ability of the teacher to explain martial combat theory in details.

2) Favor a training approach that capitalised on the physical aptitude required to excel in the martial in question and generally understand how the human body works and how martial art can do to improve physical fitness.

3) Understand and expose the strength and weakness of the martial in question (they all have some, there is no «ultimate martial art»).

4) Favors sparring session and partner training regularly without forgetting the importance of solitary training.

5) Doesn't require a specific uniform unless there is a good reason for it (like Judo for example).

6) Is ready to tailor is training up to a certain point to adapt to your style, personality and physical capacities.

7) Is capable to recognise that considering your physical condition another type of martial art might be more appropriate for you.

8) The teacher can demonstrate his abilities in variety of context if needed.

9) The teacher can prove that his formation is worth something by demonstrating his teaching degree is backed by a reputable organisation or at the very least with strong verifiable ties with a known and reputable «master» of the martial art.

10) Doesn't actively mix mythology, magic or pseudohistory with his teaching. (Learning about the myth, stories and legends of a specific martial art is very good and a good teacher should know a lot about them, but he should clearly separate training from cultural background and not let those stories influence your perception of what combat is). Know the real and recent history of his martial art.

11) It doesn't train children bellow the age of 12 in active self defense.

12) Doesn't require a premium for progression mark (AKA pay for your belt/rank).

13) Doesn't steal from other culture uselessly.

I agree with all of the above.

as for the MMA fights. I always notice the absence of the side kick in these fight. I won all my fights with a fast front foot side kick.

(06-04-2016 11:23 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  The first style I ever learn was street boxing. My grandfather and uncle taught me tricks of intimidation and using what's at hand to take an on an aponint. My grandfather was a WW2 vet and I heard a few stories of him killing people with his bare hands. In my late teens I learned and taught Isshin-ryū for about 7 years. I never made black belt although I probable could have. I had to stop it while going threw college because there where no schools near me at the time. I did fight in one or two local MMA competitions. But didn't win any. Me being kind of broke was defiantly major factor for my decline.

I've been looking to learn a new style but money still comes into play. I've been looking at Krav Maga, Capoeira, Kung-Fu. or Jeet Kune Do.

I helped me majorly in high school. Had a few bullies that left me alone after they saw I wasn't defenseless anymore.

To add to epronovost points I never like seeing little children learning to fight. One because if ever put against someone that would pose a real threat play fighting wasn't going to help.

Forget Capoeira unless you play the berimbau or pandeiro. Jeet kune do is rubbish. Muay Thai and wrestling are a good combo.

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08-04-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: Martial arts.
@Banjo

Tai Chi was developped by the Chinese Imperial Guard during the 15th century. It's a brutal martial art. Probably one of the most sadstic and efficient one I have studied. It's designed to disarmed and maim people in armor or wearring extensive protection. It's purely a battlefield martial art. Like Indian Kenpo, the eldest martial art still in practice today, you are suppose to spend the first 5 years of training only learning the basic move and practicing your balance and precision by making the move in slow motion while physically training on the side. The next 5 years, you actually learned how to really apply those move by adding speed and power to it. Of course, very few school of Tai Chi today train or even know about part 2.

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08-04-2016, 06:29 AM
RE: Martial arts.
Judo in college - tore an ACL, foot got caught on a mat during a throw
Tae Kwon Do - for 3 years
Shotokan - 2 years
Hap Kido - 1 year

We moved around a lot. Now I just pound on a heavy bag.

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08-04-2016, 06:30 AM
RE: Martial arts.
(08-04-2016 06:29 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Judo in college - tore an ACL, foot got caught on a mat during a throw
Tae Kwon Do - for 3 years
Shotokan - 2 years
Hap Kido - 1 year

We moved around a lot. Now I just pound on a heavy bag.

What's her name? Wink

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