Mary's Virginity
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28-05-2012, 02:45 PM
Mary's Virginity
I just don't get it.

Supposedly, Mary was a virgin who suddenly found herself pregnant. I have a much easier time believing that she did sleep with someone before marriage (maybe Joseph? Were they engaged or anything before the pregnancy?) Or was raped and didn't tell anyone. Hell, aliens abducting and artificially inseminating Mary sounds more plausible.

But WHY did everyone just believe she had been a virgin? I assume they must have since she wasn't stoned to death. There was something on Banned from the Bible on the History Channel that someone probably checked to see if her hymen was intact.

And then the whole traveling to a distant city/town/whatever with Joseph while she was pregnant? It sounds to me like a woman pregnant out of wedlock leaving town until the whole thing blew over. (Especially since apparently there's no record of that 'census' thing.)

I'm a geek and love Star Wars, but this is like that part of The Phantom Menace when Shmi Skywalker told Qui-Gon Jinn that she just suddenly found herself pregnant with Anakin and that he had no father. Qui-Gon for some reason just took her word for it (I guess the midi-chlorian count helped...) and brought Anakin to the Jedi Council where he used the "Anakin was concieved by midi-chlorians!" thing to try to get him trained as a Jedi.
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28-05-2012, 03:15 PM
RE: Mary's Virginity
I have always just seen this as part of the myth, I do not think an unwed mother would have done well back then in that area.

These savior types do tend to eschew the birth canal as Christopher Hitchen's put it. Everything about them needs to be miraculous so they cannot be conceived in the normal way.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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28-05-2012, 03:33 PM
RE: Mary's Virginity
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[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRg5W2VHi4gyQk5VLgPMi...5tdkwPxX7S]

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTV6oi_xaAQ6VKHiI050l0...611tNA9vtQ]
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28-05-2012, 03:39 PM
RE: Mary's Virginity
She had a Roman Solder boyfriend, so the Roman's said.
She was "sold" into marriage to Big Joe.
Put yourself in her place.
Not much of a miracle here.
Just good old fashioned 1st century sex in the back seat of the chariot.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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28-05-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: Mary's Virginity
"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?" ~ David Hume

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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28-05-2012, 03:49 PM
RE: Mary's Virginity
I've even said for years that she could've not had sex, but maybe have a guy "spill his seed" on her in the right place and the sperm were fighters--and made their way into her. Given what they knew, that wasn't possible, and she'd be a virgin.

Of course they do use things like "bloody sheets" or something for a virgin test.... which is actually a "pregnancy test" of sorts. So maybe "virgin" meant "not pregnant yet" who knows... In any event, I doubt she conceived on her own.... even though it could be possible that a woman could get pregnant on her own without sperm due to something screwy.
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28-05-2012, 03:57 PM
RE: Mary's Virginity
When you have to sell something you have to adapt it to your buyers... If you had to sell something in the mediterranean 2000 years ago you had to adapt it to the Greco-Roman culture.

The virgin birth is probably a Christian adaption to Greco-Roman culture, where there are several examples of a god (often Zeus) who shags a virgin, and makes a legendary hero/half god. Here´s a wiki article on the subject.

Adjust to your audience and all that Wink
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28-05-2012, 04:05 PM
RE: Mary's Virginity
You know, Christians try to defend this whole idea as being "necessary" because they say that the "sin nature" travels in the "man's seed". But this isn't an actual biblical idea. The bible has nothing to say about evil being a physical thing (or even a spiritual thing) attached to sperm, and there's no reason to assume that a baby born by another method would be sin-free. Romans 3:23 tells us that "all have sinned", meaning that everyone has a sin nature... except those that don't: Jesus (naturally) and also Elijah and Enoch. Forget these two examples, Christians? Do you assume they were also born immaculately?

Let's look at another example: Melchizedek. Doesn't ring a bell? The bible says he didn't have any parents. Now that's a miraculous birth. And yet despite his "having no beginning or end", he isn't seen as divine.

And finally, even though I know this can be rationally argued against, Adam and Eve weren't born from a "man's seed", and yet they sinned. It's pretty clear that being born from non-seed doesn't make one sinless. So what point is being made from Jesus' non-seed beginning?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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28-05-2012, 04:09 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2012 04:13 PM by Scarlet Pimpernel.)
RE: Mary's Virginity
She obviously got it from a toilet seat...

...where God had been jerking off again.
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28-05-2012, 05:45 PM
RE: Mary's Virginity
The intention was never to say she was a "virgin". It's a mistranslation.

The so-called "virgin birth" is one of the PRIME examples where there is development of an off-the-wall notion, based on a translation, of a MIS-translation, of a translation, which is then taken out of context, and solidified as doctrine, and driven over the cliff.

To wit :
a. Background :
Isaiah 7 talks about the history of King Ahaz, son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, who was king of Judah. At the time, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah, son of Remaliah, King of Israel, marched up to fight against Jerusalem, and the campaign was long and protracted. See the Syro-Ephraimite War, (Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Ephraimite_War ), and it happened in the 8th Century (734) BC. When Ahaz was loosing faith, Isaiah went to visit him, and told him to "buck up", keep the faith, and continue the war, and told him that the SIGN from god, that they were favored, was that one of his wives, (a "woman of marriageable age") would be found to be with child. The SIGN was the CHILD, (and NOT the manner of the birth). ...."And they shall name him Emmanuel" which means "god is with us". The CHILD was the SIGN.

Any devout Jew in the time of the Roman occupation, (around 60 AD), would know that story, from Isaiah, and when they heard the words "a woman, (of marriageable age) will be found to be with child" they would connect the stories in their brains, and recognize that the gospel text's intention was to remind them of the Isaiah story, and would "harken" back to it, and realize the intent of the author was to claim that THIS child also was a sign. The general intent of the Gospel of Matthew was to claim the fulfillment of the various prophesies regarding the messiah, and this one was another one of those claims/stories of fulfillment.

b. The word "virgin" is a mistranslation, of a translation. So WE have a translation, of a mis-translation, of a translation. Matthew, writing in Greek about the "virgin birth" of Jesus, quotes the Septuagint text of Isaiah 7:14-16, which uses the Greek word "παρθένος" (parthenos,), (we still use the term "parthenogenesis") while the original Hebrew text has "עלמה" (almah), which has the slightly wider meaning of an unmarried, betrothed,or newly wed woman such as in the case of Ahaz' betrothed Abijah, daughter of Zechariah. He NEVER meant to imply that he was asserting "gynecological" claims, and THAT whole business was "off-the-wall", a mistranslation, taken to ridiculous extremes, by interpreters who missed the point. THE CHILD was the sign.

Also interesting that Matthew (1:25) only says that Joseph "knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son". It does NOT say she REMAINED a virgin. (??)

See also : Mother Goddess, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_goddess ) and Joseph Campbell, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess ) and Courtly Love, ( http://cla.calpoly.edu/~dschwart/engl513...ourtly.htm ). The business of Mary, and her idealized state, was extremely important in the civilization/culture of the West, and in some circles remains very important today, (Lourdes & claims of "Marian" apparitions" etc., etc.)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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