Mass shooting in Orlando
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15-06-2016, 11:18 AM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2016 11:49 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
(15-06-2016 11:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(15-06-2016 09:04 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We currently have a "problem" with people shifting from non-Western cultures to Western countries, and not instantly adapting to the new cultures. In a generation or two, it will pass, and they will begin to assimilate... even in places like Iran, the members of the younger generations don't think like the asshole elders, by a wide margin.
Meaning, in 25 to 50 years? That's an awfully long time to have two different cultures clashing against each other.

Indeed it is.

Edit to Add: I think I need to say more about that. The clash is inevitable when cultures merge like that. It's one of the reasons we see backlash against every immigrant group that comes to a new culture-- I can't speak for Europe, but I know that America went through it with anti-Catholic, anti-Irish, anti-Jewish, and recently anti-Latino rhetoric filling the air. It takes time for the people who come to the new land, overall, to see the benefits of the new culture and to adopt the new ways of thinking. Some (I would say most, but have no actual data to back this up) are delighted to leave the repression of the countries they fled from, and eagerly embrace the new culture. Some cling to "tradition" while their kids born in the new country roll their eyes at the ignorance of the elders and just pay lip-service to the old ideas while actually embracing the new culture. And a few of them will be very ignorant, very loud, and hostile to the new culture. The last group are a potential threat, and among them will be actual threats-- people who believe that they can frighten and intimidate the wider culture into adopting the ways of the old country's repressive ideologies, because that's essentially how it was enforced in the old country. They get frustrated and lash out in violent ways largely because they see the assimilation of their "fellow countrymen" (their view) and are powerless to do anything to stop it.

However, when we tag the whole group as Outsiders, when we label them all under the broadest term we can manage and point to their assholes as representative of the whole, we send the message to the youngsters that they're not really "one of us", and we thereby discourage them from joining Western society (with its accompanying values of respect for those who are different) and create insular "ghettoes" of people who resent the broader culture in which they now find themselves. We see a lot of that expressed as violent anger in places like southern France, for instance, where French ethnocentrism has spawned a generation of angry young brown men instead of a generation of new members of the fraternité.

In our response to the threat of the extremists among the immigrants, we can choose whether the assimilation happens more or less rapidly. I think the current approach I'm hearing from so many Americans and Europeans ensures that it's 50 years, rather than 25.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-06-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
(15-06-2016 11:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(15-06-2016 09:04 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We currently have a "problem" with people shifting from non-Western cultures to Western countries, and not instantly adapting to the new cultures. In a generation or two, it will pass, and they will begin to assimilate... even in places like Iran, the members of the younger generations don't think like the asshole elders, by a wide margin.
Meaning, in 25 to 50 years? That's an awfully long time to have two different cultures clashing against each other.

We've already been at it for a few dozen thousand years (at least). 25 to 50 more isn't that bad in relative terms. Hypothetically speaking, that is. We're more likely to learn to cope with the violence by shedding, over time, our increasingly obsolete sense of tribal empathy so we're no longer bothered by it than we are to solve it.

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16-06-2016, 02:27 PM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
(14-06-2016 09:07 PM)Vosur Wrote:  That's 165,000 American Muslims who have a favorable view of the radical Islamic terrorist organization which is responsible for the 9/11 attacks. There's no question that you're right about them being a minority, but it's a disturbingly large one. Shocking
Prior to December 7, 1941, 1% of *all* Americans were pro-Hitler; that's ~132,000 (total population - not sure how to break out actual numbers, but it gives an idea of magnitude); that would be equivalent to 350,000 today (same caveat).

To have a less-than-hostile opinion of the enemy is not a crime; acting on the sentiment may be a crime, but simply having the sentiment isn't. What's more, the Muslim - American community has apparently been the single most - reliable source for domestic anti-terrorist information.

Btw, here's a story that may be worth reading: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...icans.html


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18-06-2016, 05:10 PM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
(14-06-2016 08:02 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  And then there are assholes like this!

From the Washington Post:

" 'Pastor refuses to mourn Orlando victims: ‘The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die’ "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts...didnt-die/

I just recently saw this linked on F.B.

This is almost as horrible as any radical Islamic video that ISIS has put out.
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18-06-2016, 10:16 PM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
(18-06-2016 05:10 PM)DaveintheOC Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 08:02 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  And then there are assholes like this!

From the Washington Post:

" 'Pastor refuses to mourn Orlando victims: ‘The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die’ "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts...didnt-die/

I just recently saw this linked on F.B.

This is almost as horrible as any radical Islamic video that ISIS has put out.

Almost. He didn't light people on fire, or throw them off roofs; he just wishes he could kill them, like it says in the Qur'an Bible.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-06-2016, 12:19 AM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
(18-06-2016 10:16 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(18-06-2016 05:10 PM)DaveintheOC Wrote:  I just recently saw this linked on F.B.

This is almost as horrible as any radical Islamic video that ISIS has put out.

Almost. He didn't light people on fire, or throw them off roofs; he just wishes he could kill them, like it says in the Qur'an Bible.

Words like those can certainly egg on others not so savvy as to keep their own hands clean, though.
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19-06-2016, 05:59 AM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando



Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-06-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
(19-06-2016 05:59 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  


Those...people...make me sick to my stomach.
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19-06-2016, 06:39 PM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
(15-06-2016 08:57 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Trump has the vocabulary of a 4th grader. He thinks at a 4th grade level too.
Can you please refrain from insulting 4th graders? Tongue

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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20-06-2016, 04:48 AM
RE: Mass shooting in Orlando
I've been able to avoid the news on this for the most part, but just Orlando o'clock in my podcast feed. Here's the scathing atheist take: http://scathingatheist.libsyn.com/scathi...es-edition

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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