Mass shootings every single day!
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17-12-2012, 01:54 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 01:53 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 01:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let me put it this way, numbers.
Hey, numbers now! At least you're not saying stupid things anymore.


The Brady Campaign has actually been shown to manufacture numbers and use specious definitions to get the result they want, for the record. Not a reliable source.

The other chart is about what I'd expect. Interesting, those numbers are from when the Assault Weapons Ban was in effect. But there are still tons of deaths from firearms! It's almost as if people who want to kill each other use the best weapon available... I wonder what the best weapon available is if you remove guns? Knives perhaps? Baseball bats? I'm sure people will find a way.
So, your argument is "people kill each other anyways, so why not just let them have access to guns"?

Are we not above that as a species?

I'll let Twain make my point for me.
"No brute ever does a cruel thing -- that is the monopoly of those with the moral sense. When a brute inflicts pain he does it innocently; it is not wrong; for him there is no such thing as wrong. And he does not inflict pain for the pleasure of inflicting it -- only man does that."
-Mark Twain

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17-12-2012, 01:56 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 01:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let me put it this way, numbers.
Without putting this in the context of the murder rate by all means, it is not very useful; and certainly not as damning as you intend it.

As I pointed out before, the murder rate by firearm in the UK is tiny compared to the US. The murder rate is not very different. People just use other means.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-12-2012, 01:58 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 01:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 01:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Let me put it this way, numbers.
Without putting this in the context of the murder rate by all means, it is not very useful; and certainly not as damning as you intend it.

As I pointed out before, the murder rate by firearm in the UK is tiny compared to the US. The murder rate is not very different. People just use other means.
See my above post.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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17-12-2012, 01:59 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
And yes, rate matters. The crime rate is no higher in most European countries, and people still kill one another where guns are harder to get, but that is not an argument for keeping weapons, that is an argument for not doing anything to prevent murder.

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17-12-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
Actually, if anything it is an argument against guns. The fact that we have less stringent laws isn't preventing crime or murder. What good are they?

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17-12-2012, 02:07 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 01:58 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 01:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  Without putting this in the context of the murder rate by all means, it is not very useful; and certainly not as damning as you intend it.

As I pointed out before, the murder rate by firearm in the UK is tiny compared to the US. The murder rate is not very different. People just use other means.
See my above post.


The disagreement largely comes down to evaluating the cost/benefit ratio.

One group maximizes the downside of private possession of firearms and minimizes the downside of banning them.

The other side understands the positive value of private possession of firearms and accepts that there is a cost.

There will be firearm accidents, there will be suicides and murders by firearm. There should be law and education to minimize those.

History shows that government is not to be trusted with absolute power, that a disarmed populace is at the mercy of those with arms.
You can ignore this, you can claim it's not true. But the evidence is that it is true.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-12-2012, 02:08 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 01:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 01:48 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  That's ok, you can't have a nuke, but you can have a fallout shelter and you can put guns in it. That should help you out. Thumbsup


You're being an idiot, by the way.
THAT'S THE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do you need access to these types of weapons? Why are you defending an inanimate object and meddling with definitions so as to justify having one weapon over another? Why is one weapon worse than another weapon? Is it only based on how it kills? How many it kills at once? The kill to death ratio matters for legal purposes in your mind?

Why should I have to buy a bomb shelter or a bulletproof vest to protect myself from other people? Why do we have police and a military if we just want people to arm themselves?

Crime rates are not any lower in the US because we have guns, but our death by guns is far and above anyone else.

Listen kid, you're doing a strawman. Listen up and pay attention for once.


I don't subscribe to the "self-defense" argument. Nor do I subscribe to the hunting argument. Or any of those. You're attacking people who aren't here at the moment.


If all guns could magically vanish from the US all at once and a comprehensive ban of them be put in place, I would not be totally opposed to that. If you have a culture that never had guns in significant numbers, and ban guns, then you end up with not many guns. Then not many people are killed by guns anymore! They're killed by knives and cricket bats and lead pipes and so on, but at least they aren't getting holes poked in them from a distance.

But what happens when you ban guns, and there are already millions of guns floating around? The guns don't magically disappear. People don't rush to the gun trade-in centers to give away a $200 or $500 or $1500 gun for $50 (unless they're morons or getting rid of a murder weapon). People hang onto them, because when you ban guns they gain value. Criminals end up stealing guns, or buying them on the black market, having them imported from other countries... Or they end up just stabbing people or hitting them with something heavy.

What happens in the meantime? People who enjoy shooting, who see it as a sport--REGARDLESS of whether you do or not--get pissed. They hide their guns, they stock up on ammo before the ban goes in effect, they trade guns in secret. If you try to confiscate their guns, especially in the South, any of them who have violent or anti-authority tendencies might start shooting back. Cops die. Civilians die.

A depressed man wants to commit suicide, but he traded in his gun for $50 at the trade-in. He sticks his head in the oven instead or jumps off something high.

Another man wants the fame of being on the news when he goes out. Maybe he buys guns on the black market? Or perhaps he just pours some diesel into a bag of nitrate fertilizer and blows himself up in a coffee shop or a public building or a school.

Instances of accidental gun injuries decline. Yay!

The weak have no more protection against muggers or burglars. Guys break into your house with bats and knives, you should just go sit on the bed and let them take all your valuables. Don't worry, you can report it to the police!.. who will do nothing because they have too many other cases already. Or your insurance agency! "Oh, I'm sorry, your policy doesn't cover burglary, that's an extra $30/mo for your area." And if you're female you better hope they aren't feeling rapey that day.



The world keeps ticking. People keep killing each other and robbing and stealing. A little less efficiently in some ways, a little more efficiently in others. Some crime statistics go up, some go down. Death by gun decreases, death by other things goes up. Maybe in the end there's a little less death. But was it worth it?





That's what I'm saying. Banning guns isn't worth it. The changes it will accomplish in the US are miniscule and will take decades, maybe a century to settle out. In the meantime you're pissing off millions of people, seeing a huge spike in deaths, you're leaving the weak and old at the mercy of thieves with no practical defense. Maybe in the end you'll get a decrease in average mortality. I just don't think that small difference is worth the cost.

I also think that banning particular categories of gun, whether that be "Assault Weapons" or something else, will make about as much difference to crime as a fart in a brass band, except it will cost more and piss people off.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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17-12-2012, 02:09 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
So it is to the conspiracy that the government first takes away our guns and then the rest of our rights?

The conservative right seems happy to do both. The rights we are losing are not coming at the end of a barrel, but through out and out lies and political deceit.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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17-12-2012, 02:11 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 02:08 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 01:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  THAT'S THE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do you need access to these types of weapons? Why are you defending an inanimate object and meddling with definitions so as to justify having one weapon over another? Why is one weapon worse than another weapon? Is it only based on how it kills? How many it kills at once? The kill to death ratio matters for legal purposes in your mind?

Why should I have to buy a bomb shelter or a bulletproof vest to protect myself from other people? Why do we have police and a military if we just want people to arm themselves?

Crime rates are not any lower in the US because we have guns, but our death by guns is far and above anyone else.

Listen kid, you're doing a strawman. Listen up and pay attention for once.


I don't subscribe to the "self-defense" argument. Nor do I subscribe to the hunting argument. Or any of those. You're attacking people who aren't here at the moment.


If all guns could magically vanish from the US all at once and a comprehensive ban of them be put in place, I would not be totally opposed to that. If you have a culture that never had guns in significant numbers, and ban guns, then you end up with not many guns. Then not many people are killed by guns anymore! They're killed by knives and cricket bats and lead pipes and so on, but at least they aren't getting holes poked in them from a distance.

But what happens when you ban guns, and there are already millions of guns floating around? The guns don't magically disappear. People don't rush to the gun trade-in centers to give away a $200 or $500 or $1500 gun for $50 (unless they're morons or getting rid of a murder weapon). People hang onto them, because when you ban guns they gain value. Criminals end up stealing guns, or buying them on the black market, having them imported from other countries... Or they end up just stabbing people or hitting them with something heavy.

What happens in the meantime? People who enjoy shooting, who see it as a sport--REGARDLESS of whether you do or not--get pissed. They hide their guns, they stock up on ammo before the ban goes in effect, they trade guns in secret. If you try to confiscate their guns, especially in the South, any of them who have violent or anti-authority tendencies might start shooting back. Cops die. Civilians die.

A depressed man wants to commit suicide, but he traded in his gun for $50 at the trade-in. He sticks his head in the oven instead or jumps off something high.

Another man wants the fame of being on the news when he goes out. Maybe he buys guns on the black market? Or perhaps he just pours some diesel into a bag of nitrate fertilizer and blows himself up in a coffee shop or a public building or a school.

Instances of accidental gun injuries decline. Yay!

The weak have no more protection against muggers or burglars. Guys break into your house with bats and knives, you should just go sit on the bed and let them take all your valuables. Don't worry, you can report it to the police!.. who will do nothing because they have too many other cases already. Or your insurance agency! "Oh, I'm sorry, your policy doesn't cover burglary, that's an extra $30/mo for your area." And if you're female you better hope they aren't feeling rapey that day.



The world keeps ticking. People keep killing each other and robbing and stealing. A little less efficiently in some ways, a little more efficiently in others. Some crime statistics go up, some go down. Death by gun decreases, death by other things goes up. Maybe in the end there's a little less death. But was it worth it?





That's what I'm saying. Banning guns isn't worth it. The changes it will accomplish in the US are miniscule and will take decades, maybe a century to settle out. In the meantime you're pissing off millions of people, seeing a huge spike in deaths, you're leaving the weak and old at the mercy of thieves with no practical defense. Maybe in the end you'll get a decrease in average mortality. I just don't think that small difference is worth the cost.

I also think that banning particular categories of gun, whether that be "Assault Weapons" or something else, will make about as much difference to crime as a fart in a brass band, except it will cost more and piss people off.
That whole post is a slippery slope fallacy.

I have replied to the other ideas embedded within it in my previous posts on this page.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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17-12-2012, 02:13 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
And the whole "listen up kid" bit as an attempt to discredit me through my age is an ad hominem. Trying to discredit my argument by saying I am too juvenile to understand it is absurd.

I was born and raised in the south. I know what the gun-culture is like. I was as big a gun supporter as anyone. But I cannot sit by in good conscience on the side I previously endorsed. It is not the moral high ground.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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