Mass shootings every single day!
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17-12-2012, 06:44 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 06:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:35 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I also believe that the self-defense argument is a poor one.
I am quoting the articles. Both have a maximum effective range of 40 meters.
And why is self-defense a poor argument?
If weapons are heavily regulated and monitored, I fail to see what other firearms you'd have to defend yourself against.

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17-12-2012, 07:00 PM
Re: RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 06:14 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:10 PM)TheBlackKnight Wrote:  The problem with your post is: hunting is not a right in the US but a privilege, while keeping firearms suited for defense of the homestead and homeland IS. BTW I hunt deer with my AR bc its the only rifle I own and is like a swiss army knife, its does everything.

The other problem is your basing your illogic on exotic appearance and not the firearms function. Something that gun grabbers with little practical understanding of firearms are guilty of.
The Spas 12 and AR 15 are both specifically designed to kill people. Ahem, I mean, defend yourself.

Nice job avoiding my underlying point and then commenting on something you read in a article online.

Let me remind you that killing someone is not a illegal nor immoral act when you are defending yourself/home. You fail again
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17-12-2012, 07:10 PM
Re: RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 06:28 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  The AR-15 is a sport rifle based on a military design. Your conclusion is that is is specifically designed to kill people.

It is designed to be an accurate, controllable semi-automatic rifle. It is an excellent varmint rifle.

Ah, and SPAS stands for Sporting Purpose Automatic Shotgun. I don't buy that either.

(17-12-2012 06:22 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The Remington 870 is equally designed as both a hunting weapon and a self defense weapon. It's designed to kill both humans and deer, it was from the very beginning. Same for, say, the Mossburg 500. They're two of the most common hunting shotguns, and two of the most common self-defense shotguns. So which category does it fall into, Logica?



What makes a SPAS more deadly than a Mossburg, in your opinion?
This is where rent-only becomes part of gun control. I think it would be most logical to only allow usage of a hunting weapon on hunting grounds, otherwise I do not believe an individual is qualified or justified in carrying or owning one.


The SPAS has a higher fire-rate, has a larger ammunition capacity, and has the same effective range as the Mossburg 500 hunting rifle.

It's pretty clear your knowledge of firearms is about that of a deep south pastor's knowledge of evolutionary biology, but that dosent stop you from having such a toxic and ill informed opinion on the subject. Please do us a favor and shut up. You don't even know that the mossburg 500 isnt a rifle.^^

You beliefs mean literally nothing.
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17-12-2012, 07:30 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 06:44 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  And why is self-defense a poor argument?
If weapons are heavily regulated and monitored, I fail to see what other firearms you'd have to defend yourself against.
I am 5'4" with an artificial knee. I live alone in a rural setting.

Some big dude, or two, comes to rob me, do you think it matters if they've got guns?

Calling 911 ain't gonna be enough.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-12-2012, 07:35 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 06:31 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  But it isn't.
The longer barrel of the Mossberg pictured makes it more accurate and gives it a higher muzzle velocity.

Seriously, you sound like a Christian arguing about limiting scientific research.
Their effective ranges are the same.
No, they're not. A longer barrel gives higher velocity and a tighter pattern - more deadly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-12-2012, 08:16 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
You can put a rifled cylindrical bore barrel on a Mossberg 500 and fire buckshot through it. It will spray shot in all directions and at 20 feet could conceivably hit five or six people at once. It actually has more effect than sawing off the barrel.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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17-12-2012, 08:23 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 06:34 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:31 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The Mossberg 500 is a shotgun, not a rifle.

A Mossberg has a higher fire rate and a larger ammunition capacity than a break-action shotgun, and the same effective range. Clearly Mossbergs should be banned?
The SPAS is a shotgun as well. Equivalent comparison with the Mossberg.

The Mossberg is a pump-action shotgun. The SPAS is a semi-automatic shotgun, holds 8 shells as opposed to the Mossbergs 6. Clearly, the SPAS should be banned. If, their is a weapon less effective than the Mossberg (there is), I will have to think about it. I am no weapon expert.
The Remington 1100 is a semi-auto shotgun, very popular with hunters. Should it be banned?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-12-2012, 08:33 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2012 08:42 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
Well, that was fun. At least now I know a shitload more about firearms. ... Not that there's anything useful I'm gonna do with it.

(14-12-2012 11:22 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  If it weren't going to be used as a stepping stone to further restrictions, which it undoubtedly would...

I think a licensing system would be appropriate, where you must meet the following requirements:
A. Be a citizen of the USA
B. Be 18 years of age or over
C. Have not committed a violent felony in the last 20 years, or have been in prison for such an offense in the last five years
D. Pass a safety and gun basics test, akin to a driving test
E. Pass a psychological evaluation to ensure you do not fall within the medical definition of a psychotic or sociopath

The license (and tests) to be renewed every 5 years.

The license must be shown, or the license number input online, to purchase a firearm or firearm parts or ammunition.

That sounds eminently reasonable. ... Except for the same-old same-old slippery slope shit (TheBeardedDude is right that you introduced the slippery slope shit early on in this discussion, and I don't see how calling him "kid" is anything but counterproductive to your argument, but meh ... whatever). If every slope is fucking slippery guess we just should stand still, like a deer in the middle of the road frozen by the oncoming headlights.

(17-12-2012 06:00 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I demand extremely strict licences, mandatory background check and psychiatric evaluation, required annual firearm safety education, and rental-only.

So basically the only fundamental difference between your position and Phaedrus' suggestions is one of ownership. The Bill of Rights trumps you here, Logica.

(17-12-2012 06:31 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  A Mossberg has a higher fire rate and a larger ammunition capacity than a break-action shotgun, and the same effective range. Clearly Mossbergs should be banned?

The fuck you say? You'll have to pry mine from my cold dead hands. A 12-gauge with double-ought buckshot will cut a man in half (or at least blow a hole in him big enough to stop Andre the fucking Giant). That's what I want for personal protection. But I'm neither a sport shooter, a hunter, nor a marksman. So it's perfect for me and mine. Others with better training may prefer something else. I got no issue with that.

(17-12-2012 01:48 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  Logica, what you're basically doing is like a Theist equating Atheism with Nihilism, ...

girly slinks quietly into the corner hoping nobody notices ....

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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17-12-2012, 08:41 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 08:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:31 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  A Mossberg has a higher fire rate and a larger ammunition capacity than a break-action shotgun, and the same effective range. Clearly Mossbergs should be banned?

The fuck you say? You'll have to pry mine from my cold dead hands. A 12-gauge with double-ought buckshot will cut a man in half (or at least blow a hole in him big enough to stop Andre the fucking Giant). That's what I want for personal protection. But I'm neither a sportsman, a hunter, nor a marksman. So it's perfect for me and mine. Others with better training may prefer something else. I got no issue with that.

I was attacking Logica's position by reapplying his argument. He said that the SPAS-12 should be banned because it has a higher rate of fire, larger magazine, and the same range as a Mossberg. I pointed out that a Mossberg has a higher rate of fire, larger magazine, and same range as a break action shotgun, therefore the logic applies equally well to both. In fact it applies equally well at any point of the spectrum of firearms except for the absolute weakest one you can find, which I guess would be a single shot .22 short? Therefore the argument is pretty pointless and can be used to say any gun should be banned, unless you pick an arbitrary point to draw the line. And that point can obviously be argued.

I think you should be able to own a break-action, a Mossberg 500, a SPAS-12, and a Saiga-12 and everything in-between.

The focus of gun law should be to prevent dangerous people from owning guns; not to stop everyone from owning dangerous guns. If you are a sane and responsible individual who understands firearm safety then there is no reason you should not be allowed to own any firearm from a .22 plinker to a .45-70 bear killer to an AR-15, from a .22 derringer to a Glock 17 to a S&W 500, from a break-action .410 to a SPAS-12.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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17-12-2012, 08:45 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2012 09:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(17-12-2012 08:41 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The focus of gun law should be to prevent dangerous people from owning guns; not to stop everyone from owning dangerous guns. If you are a sane and responsible individual who understands firearm safety then there is no reason you should not be allowed to own any firearm from a .22 plinker to a .45-70 bear killer to an AR-15, from a .22 derringer to a Glock 17 to a S&W 500, from a break-action .410 to a SPAS-12.

I concur. ... None of your suggestions could've prevented this particular tragedy, though. I'm not sure there are any measures which could've prevented this particular tragedy. Armed guards or cops? Maybe, but you'd want more than one and that's gonna cost. Armed teachers? That'd be fucking insane in PG County MD. There'd be dead students and teachers all over the place. Think if crazy fuck had only a shotgun he could've killed just as many kids in the same amount of time before the cops got there. Just wouldn't've needed to shoot them more than once.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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