Mass shootings every single day!
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18-12-2012, 07:36 AM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 07:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then your argument has no merit. It is not based on fact, just emotion and misinformation.

OK, you explain to me how someone stood there with an automatic rifle has no more killing power than someone with a standard handgun. I'd be fascinated to know. Then tell me what exactly an AK47 brings to society.

And try not to dodge answering this time.

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18-12-2012, 07:56 AM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 07:36 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 07:29 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then your argument has no merit. It is not based on fact, just emotion and misinformation.

OK, you explain to me how someone stood there with an automatic rifle has no more killing power than someone with a standard handgun. I'd be fascinated to know. Then tell me what exactly an AK47 brings to society.

And try not to dodge answering this time.
There are very few automatic weapons in civilian hands. As I've pointed out, these are highly regulated and require a federal license to possess them.
If someone did have an automatic rifle (and knew how to use it) then he has more 'killing power'. But that's not what people have used in these crimes.

What is a 'standard handgun'? A revolver?

An AK-47 is an automatic rifle; it is an assault rifle. Hardly anyone owns one. Do you mean the semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles?

What civilians do own are semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns.
At close range, these are equally effective at killing people.


They are also effective in hunting and in self-defense.

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18-12-2012, 08:02 AM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 07:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are very few automatic weapons in civilian hands. As I've pointed out, these are highly regulated and require a federal license to possess them.
If someone did have an automatic rifle (and knew how to use it) then he has more 'killing power'. But that's not what people have used in these crimes.

What is a 'standard handgun'? A revolver?

An AK-47 is an automatic rifle; it is an assault rifle. Hardly anyone owns one. Do you mean the semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles?

What civilians do own are semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns.
At close range, these are equally effective at killing people.


They are also effective in hunting and in self-defense.

Well as you've again dodged the question on what automatic weapons bring to society by instead talking about how many people own them I'm gonna assume you cannot think of anything they bring. I'm bored of asking the question.

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18-12-2012, 08:05 AM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 08:02 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 07:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are very few automatic weapons in civilian hands. As I've pointed out, these are highly regulated and require a federal license to possess them.
If someone did have an automatic rifle (and knew how to use it) then he has more 'killing power'. But that's not what people have used in these crimes.

What is a 'standard handgun'? A revolver?

An AK-47 is an automatic rifle; it is an assault rifle. Hardly anyone owns one. Do you mean the semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles?

What civilians do own are semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns.
At close range, these are equally effective at killing people.


They are also effective in hunting and in self-defense.

Well as you've again dodged the question on what automatic weapons bring to society by instead talking about how many people own them I'm gonna assume you cannot think of anything they bring. I'm bored of asking the question.
No, I am not dodging the question.
I am trying to understand what weapons you're talking about to be able to answer the question.

Are you talking about automatic or semi-automatic firearms? Or both?

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18-12-2012, 08:06 AM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 08:05 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I am not dodging the question.
I am trying to understand what weapons you're talking about to be able to answer the question.

Are you talking about automatic or semi-automatic firearms? Or both?

Automatic.

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18-12-2012, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2012 08:25 AM by Chas.)
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 08:06 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 08:05 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I am not dodging the question.
I am trying to understand what weapons you're talking about to be able to answer the question.

Are you talking about automatic or semi-automatic firearms? Or both?

Automatic.
There are very few automatic weapons in civilian hands.

They are almost never used in crimes.

I'm not sure what value, if any, they bring to society.


Edit:
I'm not sure what value, if any, they bring to a functioning society.


If the shit hits the fan, I'd like to have an automatic weapon. It would bring immense value to me. Yes

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18-12-2012, 08:21 AM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 08:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 08:06 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  Automatic.
There are very few automatic weapons in civilian hands.

They are almost never used in crimes.

I'm not sure what value, if any, they bring to society.
In case of runners', obviously.

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18-12-2012, 08:33 AM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2012 08:54 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
Upon returning to this thread and reading all of the comments during my absence, I am here to reconsider my position. I agree with Phaedrus that it is difficult to draw a line concerning the banning of certain weapons. I have never denied it is impossible to confiscate firearms from citizens, either. However, weapons need to be monitored more heavily, background checks must be extensive and conclusive, and the person must attend a firearm safety class annually.

The issue I have with background checks, however, is that it cannot do anything to prevent something like this past shooting.

As for GirlyMan's statement concerning the Bill of Rights, I don't care. I understand it is among the fundamentals our nation is built on, but I do not believe these fundamentals are perfect, and neither should you. We no longer live in the frontier, and we have a standing army. Times have changed since the founding of our nation.

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18-12-2012, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2012 10:49 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(15-12-2012 09:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  The murder rate by firearm in UK is 1/100 that of the US, but the overall murder rate in the UK is more than 1/2 that of the US. Conclusion? People are being murdered by other means in the UK at a far higher rate than the US. Better start looking at knife control.
(15-12-2012 10:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  Of course it does, but so what? It doesn't make people appreciably safer.
On a second thought, yes, it actually does. Not only does it effectively reduce the number of mass shootings, but the total murder rate as well. I don't know where you got your numbers from, but the claim that the UK's total murder rate is more than 1/2 of that of the USA is complete bogus. In 2009, the US had a total murder rate per 100,000 citizens of 5,0 with a homicide count of 15399. In comparison, the UK, in the same year, has had a total murder rate of 1,2 with a homicide count of 722. Notice something? Even if we make a proper comparison by multiplying the value by ~5 (314,953,000 (US) divided by 63,181,775 (UK)), you get a total murder count of 3610, which is still only about a fifth of that of the USA. We can play that game all day long with other European countries.

Here are a few others:

Germany
Murder rate: 0,8
Murder count: 690 (2691 with the US population taken into account)

France
Murder rate: 1,1
Murder count: 682 (3287 with the US population taken into account)

Belgium
Murder rate: 1,7
Murder count: 186 (5301 with the US population taken into account)

Austria
Murder rate: 0,5
Murder count: 43 (1608 with the US population taken into account)

Need I go on?

You can keep denying the causal relationship for as long as you want, it has been proven beyond a doubt that societies in which the vast majority of citizens don't own guns (many European ones) work just as well, if not even better, than the US-American one. People don't seem to have an issue with self-defense even though they are not allowed to own guns, not to mention the fact that they have less cases of rape, robbery, assault and home intruding overall. I'm tired of hearing the same old same old talk in favor of staying with the current gun laws.

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18-12-2012, 11:19 AM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 10:43 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(15-12-2012 09:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  The murder rate by firearm in UK is 1/100 that of the US, but the overall murder rate in the UK is more than 1/2 that of the US. Conclusion? People are being murdered by other means in the UK at a far higher rate than the US. Better start looking at knife control.
(15-12-2012 10:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  Of course it does, but so what? It doesn't make people appreciably safer.
On a second thought, yes, it actually does. Not only does it effectively reduce the number of mass shootings, but the total murder rate as well. I don't know where you got your numbers from, but the claim that the UK's total murder rate is more than 1/2 of that of the USA is complete bogus. In 2009, the US had a total murder rate per 100,000 citizens of 5,0 with a homicide count of 15399. In comparison, the UK, in the same year, has had a total murder rate of 1,2 with a homicide count of 722. Notice something? Even if we make a proper comparison by multiplying the value by ~5 (314,953,000 (US) divided by 63,181,775 (UK)), you get a total murder count of 3610, which is still only about a fifth of that of the USA. We can play that game all day long with other European countries.

Here are a few others:

Germany
Murder rate: 0,8
Murder count: 690 (2691 with the US population taken into account)

France
Murder rate: 1,1
Murder count: 682 (3287 with the US population taken into account)

Belgium
Murder rate: 1,7
Murder count: 186 (5301 with the US population taken into account)

Austria
Murder rate: 0,5
Murder count: 43 (1608 with the US population taken into account)

Need I go on?

You can keep denying the causal relationship for as long as you want, it has been proven beyond a doubt that societies in which the vast majority of citizens don't own guns (many European ones) work just as well, if not even better, than the US-American one. People don't seem to have an issue with self-defense even though they are not allowed to own guns, not to mention the fact that they have less cases of rape, robbery, assault and home intruding overall. I'm tired of hearing the same old same old talk in favor of staying with the current gun laws.
My bad, I misread a table. But the more recent rate for the U.S. is 4.2 per 100k. It has dropped since the assault weapon ban ended in 2004.

Notwithstanding, the U.S. is below the world average and ranks about 105th in the world, behind such notables as Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cuba, and (!) Greenland.

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