Mass shootings every single day!
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18-12-2012, 12:24 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 12:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 12:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  And there is no reason to suppose that a short-term rise was caused by the expiration of the ban.
You're attacking a straw man. I didn't suggest that the expiration of the ban was the cause of the rise of the murder rates, you made the claim that the murder rates dropped following the expiration despite the fact that this is demonstrably false.

The murder rate is lower in 2011 than in 2004. That's a drop.

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(18-12-2012 12:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Some others have called for re-instituting the legislation. It solved no problems.
There was no attempt at closing certain loopholes and regulating firearms more strictly. That's your problem.

What loopholes? Private sales? There is no 'gun show loophole' in law.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-12-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  The murder rate is lower in 2011 than in 2004. That's a drop.
What's your point? There is no correlation between the two events.

(18-12-2012 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  What loopholes? Private sales? There is no 'gun show loophole' in law.
Is that so?

From Wikipedia:
"Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner."

That aside, are you selectively addressing my points on purpose? Why do you respond to my comment about loopholes but ignore what I said about the necessity of stricter gun control?

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18-12-2012, 12:45 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 12:32 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  The murder rate is lower in 2011 than in 2004. That's a drop.
What's your point? There is no correlation between the two events.
I think that is his point.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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18-12-2012, 12:48 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 12:45 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  I think that is his point.
Just a few posts ago, Chas argued that there is a correlation, so that's most definitely not his point.

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18-12-2012, 01:12 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
I find it amusing how the gun laws in the United States are designed so you have to prove why you are not fit to own a firearm. In Europe, you have to prove as to why you have to own one.

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18-12-2012, 01:41 PM
Re: RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 01:12 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I find it amusing how the gun laws in the United States are designed so you have to prove why you are not fit to own a firearm. In Europe, you have to prove as to why you have to own one.

Innate rights are kinda like that.
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18-12-2012, 01:44 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 12:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 12:45 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  I think that is his point.
Just a few posts ago, Chas argued that there is a correlation, so that's most definitely not his point.
Well I don't agree with that position. The data is too limited and erratic to draw conclusions.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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18-12-2012, 02:17 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 01:41 PM)TheBlackKnight Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 01:12 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I find it amusing how the gun laws in the United States are designed so you have to prove why you are not fit to own a firearm. In Europe, you have to prove as to why you have to own one.

Innate rights are kinda like that.

Owning a firearm is not an innate human right, and it is an outdated relic within our Bill of Rights.

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18-12-2012, 02:41 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
(18-12-2012 12:32 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  The murder rate is lower in 2011 than in 2004. That's a drop.
What's your point? There is no correlation between the two events.

(18-12-2012 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  What loopholes? Private sales? There is no 'gun show loophole' in law.
Is that so?

From Wikipedia:
"Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner."

That aside, are you selectively addressing my points on purpose? Why do you respond to my comment about loopholes but ignore what I said about the necessity of stricter gun control?
I have addressed gun laws in another thread. I'm all for rational, enforceable laws. I'm against re-implementing the "assault weapons ban" that expired in 2004 because it was an irrational, ineffective law.

You are calling differing state laws "loopholes". There are 50 states, each has its own laws.
In some states, private sales of firearms are not regulated. That is the loophole.

The anti-gun people make up shit like "assault weapons" and "gun-show loophole" instead of having a fact-based, rational discussion. The gun nuts do the same thing. Let's not let the crazies drive the discussion.

To have a useful discussion, let's discuss what the problems are and how to address them constructively.

Some facts about the U.S. are:
  • There are nearly 300,000,000 firearms in private hands.
  • The right to possess firearms is Constitutionally protected.
  • The U.S. has the worst health care system among industrialized nations, with mental health services severely limited.
  • The drug laws create violence.
  • The income inequities create violence.
  • There are 50 states and a federal government with differing laws on health care, drugs, firearms, social services.
The problems aren't simple, the solutions aren't simple.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-12-2012, 03:09 PM
RE: Mass shootings every single day!
What really should have been done was to give the guy some porn and a bottle of lotion. Masturbation prevents a lot of murder.

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