Math and God
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 2.33 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-02-2013, 02:09 AM
Math and God
Math is simply a language we humans use when the details of what we are trying to describe become so complex that natural language no longer suffices. I'm going to make an assumption that most if not all of you believe that math can be used to describe reality. If we assume for a moment that God does indeed exist can He be describe by math?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-02-2013, 02:17 AM
RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 02:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Math is simply a language we humans use when the details of what we are trying to describe become so complex that natural language no longer suffices.
Please fully explain your premise. I've read it a few times and find it impenetrable.

And...until you make the premise clear, then how can we rationally discuss your question?

Thanks.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Julius's post
25-02-2013, 02:36 AM
Brick RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 02:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Math is simply a language we humans use when the details of what we are trying to describe become so complex that natural language no longer suffices. I'm going to make an assumption that most if not all of you believe that math can be used to describe reality. If we assume for a moment that God does indeed exist can He be describe by math?


Why do you consider math as a vehicle used to describe things too complex for "natural" language? As a bonus question, what is defined as "Natural language"?

As far as my educators have informed me through my (admittedly simple) mathematical courses, Math is simply sets, sets are well defined, discrete collections of objects.

Sure it can get complicated, but to my understanding, the elements of a formula can still be broken down into distinct, defined, independent things.


But lets run with your line of thinking for a second.

How would a deity, any deity, be proven mathematically? What formula could possibly be made to show, represent or describe a deity?


Do you have one pre-prepared?


*I apologizes to those who are more mathematically competent that I, that's just the way I have been taught to understand mathematics, any corrections or criticisms are more than welcome, but lets not derail the thread too badly.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Free Thought's post
25-02-2013, 03:07 AM
RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 02:17 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 02:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Math is simply a language we humans use when the details of what we are trying to describe become so complex that natural language no longer suffices.
Please fully explain your premise. I've read it a few times and find it impenetrable.

And...until you make the premise clear, then how can we rationally discuss your question?

Thanks.
Premise 1: Math can be used to describe things real and imagined.
Premise 2: God is a thing that is either real or imagined.
Conclusion: Math can be used to describe God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-02-2013, 03:22 AM
RE: Math and God
If there is a possibility it exists, it can be proven by maths. However, not all things that are mathematically reconcilable are real. Most of the time, when somebody says there's maths suggesting something, it means that there are no mathematical problems preventing the existence of that thing. Whether or not it actually exists is a whole new level.

If you want to use maths to prove god, good luck. That task in itself will be impossible, and even if you managed it, it still wouldn't be solid proof - just proof that if god did exist, it wouldn't be breaking any laws.

Science, logic and how they destroy religious arguments @ http://scepticalprophet.wordpress.com/

To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.
- Isaac Asimov.
Faith means not wanting to know what is true.
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-02-2013, 03:27 AM
RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 03:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 02:17 AM)Julius Wrote:  Please fully explain your premise. I've read it a few times and find it impenetrable.

And...until you make the premise clear, then how can we rationally discuss your question?

Thanks.
Premise 1: Math can be used to describe things real and imagined.
Premise 2: God is a thing that is either real or imagined.
Conclusion: Math can be used to describe God.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Based on your assumptions, which I believe are correct, then math can certainly be used to describe "God". But...what does it matter? For example, math can be used to describe a universe with 10,11 or 100 dimensions....but is this universe possible, and is this the universe in which we live? No one has shown that it is so. Likewise for "God".

As a young Physicist, I learned that math may be used to describe the Universe in which we live, yet math really proves nothing by itself. It is only when our mathematical proofs of Physical phenomenon are tested against reality are they actually proven (or disproven). Likewise, any mathematical model of God is going to need empiracal evidence in order to insure the model is meaningful. As a result, it's going to have to be empiracally shown that "God" exists and that the model is capable of helping us learn more about this God than we already know.

That's a pretty tall bar to leap in light of the facts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Julius's post
25-02-2013, 05:48 AM
RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 03:27 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 03:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Premise 1: Math can be used to describe things real and imagined.
Premise 2: God is a thing that is either real or imagined.
Conclusion: Math can be used to describe God.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Based on your assumptions, which I believe are correct, then math can certainly be used to describe "God". But...what does it matter? For example, math can be used to describe a universe with 10,11 or 100 dimensions....but is this universe possible, and is this the universe in which we live? No one has shown that it is so. Likewise for "God".

As a young Physicist, I learned that math may be used to describe the Universe in which we live, yet math really proves nothing by itself. It is only when our mathematical proofs of Physical phenomenon are tested against reality are they actually proven (or disproven). Likewise, any mathematical model of God is going to need empiracal evidence in order to insure the model is meaningful. As a result, it's going to have to be empiracally shown that "God" exists and that the model is capable of helping us learn more about this God than we already know.

That's a pretty tall bar to leap in light of the facts.
I still don't think it would be possible. By definition, god would have to defy existing laws of physics and numerous equations. There'd be no way to reconcile that kind of maths. How do you mathematically describe something that can create infinities? Are you going to multiple infinities with infinities?

No. God just isn't rational enough a concept to be described by something as objective and rational as maths.

Science, logic and how they destroy religious arguments @ http://scepticalprophet.wordpress.com/

To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.
- Isaac Asimov.
Faith means not wanting to know what is true.
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Sceptical Prophet's post
25-02-2013, 08:23 AM
RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 02:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Math is simply a language we humans use when the details of what we are trying to describe become so complex that natural language no longer suffices. I'm going to make an assumption that most if not all of you believe that math can be used to describe reality. If we assume for a moment that God does indeed exist can He be describe by math?
Sure, here's an equation for you.

0% evidence = 0% God.

Thank you.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 9 users Like Free's post
25-02-2013, 09:08 AM
RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 02:36 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 02:09 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Math is simply a language we humans use when the details of what we are trying to describe become so complex that natural language no longer suffices. I'm going to make an assumption that most if not all of you believe that math can be used to describe reality. If we assume for a moment that God does indeed exist can He be describe by math?
(snip)As a bonus question, what is defined as "Natural language"?

Just for clarity and fairness to the OP, natural language[1] is a standard term used in conjunction with computer science to describe how untrained humans communicate with each other. It is usually contrasted with formal logic, formal methods, or some other formulation - even just "programming language", depending on your audience. Formal methods[2] will generally attempt to reduce or eliminate ambiguity that can arise from natural language constructs, eg: "I want you to complete your assignment or leave and don't come back" might become something like "If assignment.state == incomplete && now == assignment.start + 30m then assignment.assignee.employment.state = terminated." Typically they end up not being valuable enough to warrant developing a critical mass of trained people in a particular formal notation, although in some medical and high safety integrity systems it can be warranted. Within a group of appropriately trained people a formal approach can in principle yield more effective communication than a natural language approach to communication.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_methods

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-02-2013, 09:16 AM
RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 09:08 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 02:36 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  (snip)As a bonus question, what is defined as "Natural language"?

Just for clarity and fairness to the OP, natural language[1] is a standard term used in conjunction with computer science to describe how untrained humans communicate with each other. It is usually contrasted with formal logic, formal methods, or some other formulation - even just "programming language", depending on your audience. Formal methods[2] will generally attempt to reduce or eliminate ambiguity that can arise from natural language constructs, eg: "I want you to complete your assignment or leave and don't come back" might become something like "If assignment.state == incomplete && now == assignment.start + 30m then assignment.assignee.employment.state = terminated." Typically they end up not being valuable enough to warrant developing a critical mass of trained people in a particular formal notation, although in some medical and high safety integrity systems it can be warranted. Within a group of appropriately trained people a formal approach can in principle yield more effective communication than a natural language approach to communication.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_methods


That's for... explaining...?

I think the light of understanding got dimmer with that explanation.. Does not seem to be all that natural...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: