Math and God
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18-07-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Math and God
(25-02-2013 03:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Premise 1: Math can be used to describe things real and imagined.
Premise 2: God is a thing that is either real or imagined.
Conclusion: Math can be used to describe God.

In order to accurately describe something using mathematiics you must first properly define it. Otherwise you are simply misusing numbers as religion so commonly misuses words. No accurate or even logically consistent description of God has ever been provided, but best of luck with that.

Incidentally, your friend is correct. God cannot be defined by math, unless you are discussing a small "g" god.

- Math is based upon logic.
- Amongst other common attributes, God is typically described as the "Uncaused Cause".
- Consequently God is not constrained by logic.
- And thus God cannot be described by math. Any attempt to do so will degenerate into the sort of Reduction to Absurdity that is best expressed as 1 = 0.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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18-07-2016, 06:48 PM
RE: Math and God
The universe we observe contains different things.
We can quantify and measure everything around us according to a set scale of weights and measures.

Our ability to measure one thing and then craft another thing with those same measurements helped to advance our civilization.

When I measure a length of board to be cut, there are no gods involved in this process. When I cut it in half, again, no gods.

Math helps us describe the world we observe through measurement.

In a universe that is completely fluid in nature, always changing, flowing, it would be hard to imagine life emerging in such a place, but even if it did, what would they be able to measure ? And what could they use as a standard if everything constantly changed ?

We were lucky to have evolved in a universe that is fairly stable. This universe forms elements and discrete structures that eventually lead to life and then intelligent life.

We use our ability to measure in order to create design.

This is where design comes from.
Nature
Life
Intelligent life
Design

If you want to place a god in there, it would be as a designed story told by people who like to invent gods.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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18-07-2016, 07:04 PM
RE: Math and God
Why is there also this desire to talk up the notion of purity in discussion of divine. To make appeals to things being "natural" or more desirable by notion of a system, it's just a thin attachment to this perceived presumed value in things being pure.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-07-2016, 07:40 PM
RE: Math and God
(18-07-2016 06:32 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  - And thus God cannot be described by math. Any attempt to do so will degenerate into the sort of Reduction to Absurdity that is best expressed as 1 = 0.

And that is precisely why I AM BOB. SLACK bitches. Drinking Beverage

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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19-07-2016, 12:47 AM
RE: Math and God
(18-07-2016 06:32 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  In order to accurately describe something using mathematiics you must first properly define it.

We didn't have a proper definition for the universe before we started to use math to describe it. Newton used math to describe gravitational forces but he had no idea what those forces were.
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19-07-2016, 12:52 AM
RE: Math and God
(18-07-2016 06:20 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(18-07-2016 12:00 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Premise 1: On an unbounded number line, for every number there exists a unique identifiable point that corresponds to it.
Premise 2: On an unbounded number line, there is no unique identifiable point that corresponds to infinity.
Conclusion: Infinity is not a number.

Now consider the following statements:
Statement A: Heywood's above argument is not valid and/or true.
Statement B: Ramanujan got it wrong.
Statement C: Bucky misinterpreted Ramanujan.

Only one of those statements is true. Can you figure out which one?

Statement A is correct. Premise 2 can be shown to be invalid. Kindly observe:

- Every integer is infinitely divisible. Between 0 and 1 lies 1/2, between 0 and 1/2 lies 1/4, 1/8, 1/16....1/(2^infinity).

- If we number each fraction between two integers we will reach infinity.

- Better, the same can be said for any two fractions between integers.

So infinity exists on your number line between 0 and 1 (or any two arbitrary integers) and it is present an infinite number of times.

Welcome to the wonderful world of cardinality.

Sorry but you are wrong. Premise 2 requires there to a unique identifiable point. You claim there are multiple points none of which correspond to the number infinity because they all correspond to some other real number. All you have done is shown that there are an infinite number of real numbers between any two points on a number line. You haven't shown that you can point to point and say that one is infinity.....which is what you need to do to disprove premise 2.
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19-07-2016, 12:59 AM
RE: Math and God
(18-07-2016 03:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  What about the fact that everything can be exactly defined within mathematics?

Doesn't that hint at intelligent design?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I don't think it does. Here is a thread where argued how to tell if something is designed.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ght=design
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19-07-2016, 02:06 AM
RE: Math and God
(19-07-2016 12:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We didn't have a proper definition for the universe before we started to use math to describe it.

But we did have a proper definition of the aspects we were describing.

(19-07-2016 12:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Newton used math to describe gravitational forces but he had no idea what those forces were.

No, Newton had no idea why those forces were. You can describe the function of an engine without knowing that it comes from a factory.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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19-07-2016, 02:20 AM
RE: Math and God
(19-07-2016 02:06 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 12:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We didn't have a proper definition for the universe before we started to use math to describe it.

But we did have a proper definition of the aspects we were describing.

(19-07-2016 12:47 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Newton used math to describe gravitational forces but he had no idea what those forces were.

No, Newton had no idea why those forces were. You can describe the function of an engine without knowing that it comes from a factory.

We were pretty clueless about what we were describing when we started to describe the world with math. Paleophyte's claim that you have to first define what you describe is just wrong.
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19-07-2016, 02:24 AM (This post was last modified: 19-07-2016 02:28 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: Math and God
(18-07-2016 03:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  What about the fact that everything can be exactly defined within mathematics?

No it can't. Maths allows you to create approximate descriptions.

(18-07-2016 03:48 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Doesn't that hint at intelligent design?

... of Maths by humans then yes.

... of life by a god, then no.
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