Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
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10-03-2011, 01:01 AM
 
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
15 cubits covered the peak of mountain tops? It seems our dear God made a serious miscalculation. 15 cubits is 6.86 m. That's right. Noah's flood was 4 people tall.

You have been deluded into thinking that there is research where there isn't. They used the same ploy on me for 17 years. "There's evidence that says this." And then they point me in the direction of some internet article that looks decent, cites some papers. And since I was scientifically illiterate I took it as true. When I realized that these were all lies, and how fervently they were lying to me, I really challenged all of my beliefs. Starting with evolution my line of thought was this:

Microevolution has been demonstrated in a lab. That's great, we know what causes evolution. Random mutations that cause changes in DNA that eventually become so great that it becomes a new species fit to survive. Right? You cannot deny this "microevolution" regardless of how fundamentalist you are. And if you do, you have the intellectual capacity of a lab rat, because the influenza virus's evolution is what gets you sick every year.

Well then with that, at what point does microevolution stop? At what point does it not happen anymore? That's when I realized, it doesn't. Macroevolution as it is called, is simply a bunch of microevolutions added together. When I opened my eyes to the evidence that we have to evolution and actually learned up on the stuff I was like, "Oh."

It did not rid me of my religion, but made me ask some serious questions. I began to ask what else the church was wrong about. And it turned out, every science claim they made they were wrong about. All of it, every single bit. All of the sudden all evidence in support of the Bible faded as I realized I had been lied to, and suffered indoctrination of anti-intellectualism.

Another thing I began to wonder about is how my church claimed that you had to take action on prayer for it to come to pass (touting the common phrase, "You do your best, God does the rest.") I began to see a pattern. Everything good could be explained through one's own hard work or another's generosity. And I felt like placing the thanks on God for someone else's generosity undermined free will. It didn't fit the puzzle. Why did I need to thank God if someone gave me $10? Isn't it their choice to give me the money?

I quickly realized that prayer was a facade. It didn't really work. I had prayed fervently so many times for something I had truly worked my best for, and didn't obtain it (something completely innocuous, like a job). And trust me I believed. So was I an exception when so many other people claimed to have their prayer's answered? This was corroborated by science in a famous study that showed prayer had no positive effect (and negligibly negative). I showed this to other Christians who said that it was tempting God. But I thought it was cruel and deceiving to both the researchers, and the people prayed for, since their lives rested on them recovering from the surgery, and the researchers were only interested in the truth.

I had a relapse back into my Christianity for a week once. I decided I wanted to be a good Christian. It didn't last long since I started asking more questions, but why didn't God come to me then when I was ready and seeking to worship him? Did he not know that I really did need some sign or proof in my life to keep on track? Apparently God didn't care if I turned from him, which is funny considering he claims to love me and cares about every hair on my head.

---

You want to know why we're atheists? Because many of us have used our own reason to look at the matter of religion, and really discovered it is lying, deceitful, and wrong.

On a poll, atheists and agnostics scored higher than most religious groups on a test about religion. It isn't that we don't know religion or aren't understanding it. It is that we have looked it at it, we do understand it, and it doesn't make sense to us.
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10-03-2011, 01:06 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(10-03-2011 12:27 AM)13mentaculus Wrote:  I think that the OP concedes that The Bible was written by Man.

And yes, I agree that there is a massive failure in communication here. If the message were clear, then we wouldn't have apologists saying things like...
(09-03-2011 10:59 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  -So basically to discern which parts are the views of God, we need to take them in context and try to see the point(s) being made rather than how it's being made. You can make the Bible say anything you want when you take things out of context or misunderstand them, but if you make a point to understand and take things in context (not just of where in the Bible, but of the time period, the culture, etc.) then you'll be able to discern.
In other words, we have to use The Bible to provide the basis for determining the context for which to interpret the messages in The Bible. Huh

It's like Glaucus said, why wouldn't God just communicate His message more clearly?

Lol, well God created the universe, so His message is everywhere. In physics we can see the logical mathematical way that God works. In that we can deduce that God is logical and that if we were created by Him, we should be logical too. Also, the fact that He created also rubs off on us in that He gave us the minds to create art, music, literature, etc. The very ways our minds work are a testament to the mind of God. There's a million different things God wants to say to us, we just have to listen. (By that I mean that we need to reasonably try to understand what is true and right and so on, not sit in a forest listening to the sounds of nature hoping to hear a whisper)
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10-03-2011, 01:21 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(10-03-2011 01:01 AM)Sacrieur Wrote:  On a poll, atheists and agnostics scored higher than most religious groups on a test about religion. It isn't that we don't know religion or aren't understanding it. It is that we have looked it at it, we do understand it, and it doesn't make sense to us.
BlackEyedGhost;

And for a lot of us, it wasn't an attempt to rid ourselves of the religion or our beliefs, it was our goal to become better christians (or other religion) that set our exploration to learn the truth about our religion. Upon learning that truth, we had defeated our own purposes of becoming better christians (or other religion) because what we learned was not what originally intended and we were forced to rethink our beliefs. This is how may of us became atheists.

You are here trying to convince us with arguments that we have examined and rejected long before you ever showed up. Why don't you try to understand the way we see this instead of just trying to convert us into christianity?

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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10-03-2011, 01:22 AM
 
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(10-03-2011 01:06 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Lol, well God created the universe, so His message is everywhere. In physics we can see the logical mathematical way that God works. In that we can deduce that God is logical and that if we were created by Him, we should be logical too. Also, the fact that He created also rubs off on us in that He gave us the minds to create art, music, literature, etc. The very ways our minds work are a testament to the mind of God. There's a million different things God wants to say to us, we just have to listen. (By that I mean that we need to reasonably try to understand what is true and right and so on, not sit in a forest listening to the sounds of nature hoping to hear a whisper)

The teleological argument has many objections. Standford philosophy.

And then there is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNiTsYCkyI8
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10-03-2011, 01:30 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2011 01:36 AM by 13mentaculus.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(10-03-2011 01:06 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Lol, well God created the universe, so His message is everywhere.

How do you know this?
(10-03-2011 01:22 AM)Sacrieur Wrote:  And then there is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNiTsYCkyI8

Fantastic video!
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10-03-2011, 08:37 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(10-03-2011 01:06 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Lol, well God created the universe, so His message is everywhere. In physics we can see the logical mathematical way that God works. In that we can deduce that God is logical and that if we were created by Him, we should be logical too. Also, the fact that He created also rubs off on us in that He gave us the minds to create art, music, literature, etc. The very ways our minds work are a testament to the mind of God.
This is only true if you have already decided or been taught to believe that you will "see God" or "see God's work" in these things before you examine them.

George Wrote:There is no doubt about that there is no competitor of God .
There's plenty of doubt sir, and there's plenty of competitors. God, Yahweh, Allah, Jesus, Zeus, Mars, Hermes, Ra, Thor...

George Wrote:God is one who is the owner of our lives.
Well that's a pretty depressing thought that you are "owned" by another being. Luckily for everyone there doesn't appear to be a shred of evidence to support this thought.

George, welcome to the forum, but you're not going to get very much feedback with broad vague statements like the one you just made. Do you have any demonstrable evidence that this god you speak of is real?

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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10-03-2011, 09:52 AM
 
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(10-03-2011 04:51 AM)George Wrote:  I really Believe in Oneness of God because i am the Muslim, I also believe that God is creator of whole world , humans, animals, universe. There is no doubt about that there is no competitor of God . God is one who is the owner of our lives.

Why? Has Allah appeared to you and shared his divine insight? Why should we believe in your God? You can believe in whatever you wish, but those beliefs are either irrational or rational.

Faith is simply confidence. I can have faith that my chair will support my weight, which is rational. I have plenty of evidence to show that it does. Mathematical figures and material physics prove it in theory. You can have faith that God exists. But is there evidence? Is this a rational belief? There is not.

You may have been taught that atheists are immoral pigs. That we're all Satanists or some other form of pure evil. Quite the contrary, we view Satanism with an equal level of scrutiny. We view all religions as irrational. If a Satanist were to come up to me and congratulate me for sticking it to God, I would turn around and tell him that his deity doesn't exist either. We are not evil or immoral. We are not stupid or selfish, we're intelligent, rational people.

We do not believe that it is okay to commit crimes. I, personally, support the efforts of the police, and if you take a peek in the political forum, or the philosophy forum, we engage heavily in talk about regulation of ourselves and concepts of morality. Ethical philosophy is something anyone can partake in. And many famous theologians had extremely radical views compared to, "I just believe." St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Anselm are among the most forefront in this matter. And they believed fervently that if you can't prove God's existence through logic and reason, then you have no business worshiping him. And please note that these are saints. They were extremely intelligent, extremely religious, and extremely prolific. The arguments people use to prove the existence of God primarily comes from these two. And that was HUNDREDS of years ago. Do not think you're bringing anything new to the table by bringing them up, or that we're simply denying them without understanding them.

I'm a philosopher myself (that's one of my majors anyway), and there have been some fiercely intelligent people who have written volumes on the three main arguments (ontological, teleological, and cosmological). Every objection I have thought of has all ready been expanded on by someone else. Objections I haven't thought of have been thought up a hundred years before I was born. Counter-objections as well.

The religious discover these arguments, and think they've just proved God, when really they've just started to really get anywhere on the topic. You're not bringing anything fresh or new with the teleological argument. It's been discussed, but unfortunately not to death. If you really want to convince us that God exists with these arguments you better become a student of philosophy yourself. Read what has all ready been written by those smarter than the lot of us, and then try think logically and rationally - as philosophy requires - to come up with something different or new that can open some serious discussion. Otherwise we're just throwing back and forth the same shit that's all ready been discussed.
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10-03-2011, 04:53 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Hello there!

Well In my opinion, you are just repeating every argument thrown by any believer, with all due respect my friend; but I think that explaining all things using a deity as a main cause is an argument that is not satisfactory and even silly for us because filling every gap of our existence with a deity does not explain nothing. You are just displaying the archetypical arrogant certainty of religious people IMO.

(10-03-2011 01:06 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Lol, well God created the universe, so His message is everywhere.

The burden of proof my friend, the burden of proof...

Anyway, I dont believe in your god for the same reasons you dont believe in Zeus, Poseidon or Hades, speaking of which; by using your arguments I can "prove" the existence of the Olympian Gods for example.

Using the bible as "evidence" to prove your god wont take you anywhere, at least not here, because the bible is demonstrably false even if you throw us apologist arguments which are demonstrably false too. Using the bible to prove god's existence is like using the Super Man comics to prove Jor-El's existence.

Well the bottom line is; We dont have empirical evidence to believe in your god or any other deity out there, plain and simple. We are not trying to make you an atheist, thats a fact, at least I'm not trying to do so, I dont have any objection if you believe in your god after all it is your choice, and we made our choice too. But if you want to be taken more seriously please you should give real empirical evidence in order to sustain your claims. Peace.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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13-03-2011, 02:28 AM
 
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Well, I think the reason the web site banned you is because that's what people do when they know they can't win an argument. Trying to explain science to my Dad drives him mad and he storms out of the room, trying to explain all the lies about Fox News to my brother drives him mad and he always says, "This convesation is over!"

I wouldn't dare ask a devout, right ring, Christian to explain why someone who follows Jesus's teaching would be pro war. He might shoot me!
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13-03-2011, 03:15 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(10-03-2011 01:06 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Lol, well God created the universe, so His message is everywhere. In physics we can see the logical mathematical way that God works. In that we can deduce that God is logical and that if we were created by Him, we should be logical too. Also, the fact that He created also rubs off on us in that He gave us the minds to create art, music, literature, etc. The very ways our minds work are a testament to the mind of God. There's a million different things God wants to say to us, we just have to listen. (By that I mean that we need to reasonably try to understand what is true and right and so on, not sit in a forest listening to the sounds of nature hoping to hear a whisper)

Lets see whether that is a good reason for us to accept the propositions of christianity, shall we?

Lol, well [Rabbit] created the universe, so His message is everywhere. In physics we can see the logical mathematical way that [Rabbit] works. In that we can deduce that [Rabbit] is logical and that if we were created by Him, we should be logical too. Also, the fact that He created also rubs off on us in that He gave us the minds to create art, music, literature, etc. The very ways our minds work are a testament to the mind of [Rabbit]. There's a million different things [Rabbit] wants to say to us, we just have to listen. (By that I mean that we need to reasonably try to understand what is true and right and so on, not sit in a forest listening to the sounds of nature hoping to hear a whisper)
I suppose not. All you have to do is invent the concept of a magic creaty rabbit and the argument works just as well.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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