Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
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07-04-2011, 03:12 AM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2011 03:22 AM by Chesstime.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@BlackeyedGhost....I have to bite my tongue or in this case sit on my hands, just to behave myself and "NOT attack" When you make Silly ASS Statements like....

"You can go anywhere in the world, dig and find fish fossils. This is fairly good evidence of the flood in my opinion."

You are obviously Completely Ignorant of how science Actually works!

In Fact, I can't possibly teach you in this forum.

Pfft!



The Beauty of The Scientific Method , is the Anticipation of a Better Explanation.
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07-04-2011, 02:02 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@MasterRottweiler I think you've somewhat missed the point. God and Satan are both part of us. Anything we do because of either of them is still something we chose to do. The fact that they're both present gives us the choice and thus the responsibility. I'm not saying we're pawns. I'm also not only saying that we're victims, but we're also offenders. Just because God knows something doesn't mean he directly caused it. Just because God can do anything doesn't mean He will. If evil didn't exist, we wouldn't have free will, so why would God abolish all possibility of evil? God told us not to eat the fruit and why. Free will is not an illusion. God created the randomization needed to make it possible and chose not to take that potential away from us despite what He knew that would entail evil taking form in us.
@Chesstime That ignorance is in fact one thing that I hope to solve by coming here. However, if you can't teach me then I'll remain ignorant. Perhaps you'd like to send me a link to a site that explains your objection.
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07-04-2011, 02:20 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
Blackeyedghost,

I strongly recommend you read The Greatest Show on Earth. It will give you a very strong understanding of evolution, fossils, how science uses those fossils, and many more useful tools in understanding the world around us. Even though it's a book about evolution, there are a lot of other things that can be learned from it. It's by far my favorite Dawkins book, because it's more about this amazing world we live in, and less about how wrong theists are. Of course he does refute religion throughout, (that's what Dawkins does) but for the most part it's just well explained information that helps us to understand our world with facts.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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07-04-2011, 02:23 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@BlackEyedGhost Could you actually define God and Satan? I was under the impression that God was an omnipotent being who created everything, and satan was a dick of an archangel, but you're saying things all over the show. God and Satan are part of us...
And you completely missed M.Rs point, ironically. If I know everything that is happening, everything that has happened and everything that will happen - being omniscient and all - then this introduces pre/determinism. If I know to a degree of absolute certainty what the future is, then how can I change it to something else? I can't I know what the events in the future will be, when they will occur and what will cause them. I, as an omniscient being, would not be able to choose what I do, and other un-omniscient people will keep doing what I knew they would do in the first place, but they don't know they can't do anything else. Only me, as I am omniscient in this example, can know to an absolute degree of certainty what will happen. To people who don't know everything, there is an illusion of freewill.
Don't come back with the 'because God knows something doesn't mean he directly caused it' line, no where in what M.Rs or I wrote did we say that he caused everything to be like that. If you believe God created everything, including the future, then he is a pawn of his own created future and so are we - we just don't know it.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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07-04-2011, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2011 03:20 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(07-04-2011 02:20 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Blackeyedghost,

I strongly recommend you read The Greatest Show on Earth. It will give you a very strong understanding of evolution, fossils, how science uses those fossils, and many more useful tools in understanding the world around us. Even though it's a book about evolution, there are a lot of other things that can be learned from it. It's by far my favorite Dawkins book, because it's more about this amazing world we live in, and less about how wrong theists are. Of course he does refute religion throughout, (that's what Dawkins does) but for the most part it's just well explained information that helps us to understand our world with facts.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it.
@daemonowner God is a spiritual being who is perfect, omnipotent, good, and omnisceint. He created everything as you said. Satan is possibly the fallen archangel as mainstream Christianity believes, but I prefer to see him in more practical terms as the force of evil and anything that isn't perfect. Basically the opposite of what God is. The only power Satan has is the power God allows him. In the Bible Jesus calls Peter Satan when he says that Jesus can't leave them and die. So Satan is the part of us that isn't what God wants in a sense. So back to the idea of being a pawn. God doesn't determine what we do. He determines what He does. He leaves us to do what we will. If you've ever seen the movie "Next" with Nicholas Cage, he can see the future and in seeing it he controls it. He doesn't mess with people's free will, but he changes how they act by changing how he acts. Free will and determinism aren't mutually exclusive.
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07-04-2011, 04:15 PM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2011 06:26 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@BlackEyedGhost

I think You missed my point, the idea of free will becomes irrelevant from the moment you introduce an omniscient god into the equation.

Granted, in the myth, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, ok, but if he is omniscient, he already knew that Adam and Eve will eat the fruit, See?, What I'm saying is that concepts like those are in a logical conflict, the whole judeo-christian myth contradicts itself many times within the book.

(07-04-2011 02:02 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Just because God can do anything doesn't mean He will.

Err... Actually he does in the myth, the plagues against the enemies of Israel, the so called flood, etc etc etc. He is willing to punish mankind even knowing that they are tempted by evil because as I said before, he created Lou and he knew form the very begining that Lou and mankind would become evil.

Thats when another logical conflict appears, god allowed Lou to corrupt men, god gave us free will, and then he punishes us because we are imperfect, and not only that, an evil force beyond us called Lou appears and corrupt us, even knowing that, god punishes us with eternal torment... then what kind of god do you worship? This god must be cruel.

Cruel because he is willing to punish us knowing that Lou corrupted us, and who let Lou to become evil in first place? Like I said before, an omniscient diety already knew the future.

Cruel because, why did god let the forbiden tree growing near Adam and Eve? Its like if you were a junkie and leave your meth in the living room table, then your child consume your meth tempted by an evil spider named Chet you allowed to live in your house knowing it was evil, are you going to punish him with eternal torment for YOUR mistake?

I know this is a poorly constructed analogy but i think its valid to show the flaws of the myth. Thats when many people realize that the god's logic is nothing but human logic turned into divine thought process.

Peace. I apologize for my poor english. Tongue

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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07-04-2011, 09:48 PM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@MasterRottweiler Just because God knew we would eat from the tree and still told us not to doesn't mean there's any sort of logical conflict. It simply implies that that was the situation God wanted. God doesn't want us to chose evil, but more than that He doesn't want to take away our free will. How many ways can I say this? God can destroy abolutely everything, but guess what, He doesn't. God can make a monkey give birth to a turtle, but He doesn't. As I said, just because God can do somthing doesn't mean He will. It's not illogical to punish us for not doing what we should. Dicipline is a better illustration. God diciplines us in order to show us that we're doing things wrong and to move us towards perfection. Silver is purified by fire. It's not cruelty, but love that runs the dicipline that God gives. Have I shown my point to you adequately yet?
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07-04-2011, 11:07 PM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2011 11:44 PM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@BlackEyedGhost

Sorry but still is illogical, then if he knew Adam and Eve would eat the fruit why did he bothered to warn them? He already knew from the very begining. Of course it is a flaw of logic. As I said before, free will is irrelevant when you introduce the omniscient god into the ecuation.

I dont see a major diference between the judeo-christian myth an the greek myth involving Pandora's box, because Zeus gave the box containing the evils to pandora knowing pandora was going to open it. But anyway that's another topic.

But back to the topic; All god's that have existed are invented using ancient people logic and judgements, and the judeo-christian is pretty much the same, it is human logic turned into a sexy divine logic.

(07-04-2011 09:48 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  God can destroy abolutely everything, but guess what, He doesn't. God can make a monkey give birth to a turtle, but He doesn't.

As I said before within the judeo-christian myth, god already did something, the flood, the plages against the enemies of Israel, etc etc etc, and those tales are conveniently only written since there is no proof of such things.

Wait what? A monkey giving birth to a turtle? Can You prove it? With all due respect but; WTF? You are the one who is not seeing this from a purely rational perspective since you are trying to justifiy the flawed logic from this myth using flawed logic, just like your average apologetic person.

All the things you said so far aren't new to me my friend, I've heard every one of your arguments from other christians, even when I was a believer myself, they failed to convince me before and you are failing to convince me too since you are not presenting any logical point from a rational perspective. Of course I'm not here to convince you. But if you want to make a point you need some hard evidence to sustain it. Peace.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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08-04-2011, 12:26 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
@MasterRottweiler If God hadn't warned us not to eat from the tree then when we ate from it He would be to blame for the consequences. But since He did and we still ate from it, we're to blame. I can tell a kid not to eat a cookie knowing full well he's going to disobey and eat it, but if I didn't tell him then I would be just as much to blame if he wasn't supposed to. I can know what's going to happen without making it happen. I'm not trying to give evidence here. I'm trying to get you to understand how God works. (or at least how I believe He works) So, do you understand now how an omniscient and omnipotent God can allow us free will?
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08-04-2011, 07:31 AM
RE: Me is Christian. You no believe in God?
(08-04-2011 12:26 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  So, do you understand now how an omniscient and omnipotent God can allow us free will?

No.

Omniscience precludes free will.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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